Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[LiamG]

I am going to leave your ignorant Muslim argument...it's not worth my energy.



Wait what? Accepting that America is a multicultural society is somehow promoting segregation? This makes no sense whatsoever.



Oh so there is more than one culture. An urban culture and a rural culture? I would generally agree, but I have lived all over this country and I can tell you that you are wrong that rural place X has the same culture as rural place Y.

How many states have you actually lived in?

What happens in a multicultural society is parties only try and win the support of the sub cultures leaders rather than their people. These leaders in turn also constantly thump the drum of identity politics and this keeps people in their respective little boxes fearing and distrusting other groups. This leads to self imposed segregation. Its by design it works like this. Its a way for the establishment to divide and conquer the electorate.

I have been to a lot of states. I have family in blue states but Ive only lived in one.

People everywhere like the same sports, the same music, more or less the same TV shows, have similar base views, even similar political views. The differences aren't huge but they are blown out of proportion because it serves the politicians interests.

 

[LiamG]

So that ^^^^^



Totally contradicts ^^^^

Because you accept that strongman tactics have been a cause of all this. Your arrogance is astounding.

I didn't say the strongmen caused this. They hid these problems.

These strongmen were almost all secular and most kept the rival groups at peace.

 

[roydo]

I didn't say the strongmen caused this. They hid these problems.

These strongmen were almost all secular and most kept the rival groups at peace.

You firstly said the Left caused it, then agreed the right caused it, then said "these countries need sorting", to paraphrase.

What, exactly, gives Merica the right to impose their views on countries anyrate?

 

[tsubaki]

Since 1945. Why not go back further than that. Why not talk about the Ottoman Empire. Why not talk about the Islamic conquest of Western cultures. Even the Ottoman empire defeated the East Roman empire, and took its land, a western christian empire. Was that because they kept them under the thumb also?

No so stop cherry picking history.

In fact let's then talk about more recent history.

Those on the left advocated we should just withdraw, and begin to treat the Islamic world differently and look what resulted. ISIS, the rise of the Muslim brotherhood, groups that persecuted Christians and even other Muslims of more moderate sects.

These are the groups they votes in or supported. I hoped the Arab spring would turn out different but it didn't and it showed the West while supporting dictators isn't good its the only option.

Blaming the West is nothing but self hatred and its incredibly dangerous.

I used "since 1945" as it is a part of history you are more likely to understand, and because it has had a demonstrable effect on recent events. However if you think ISIS, a group that was literally founded in the US-run prison system after the Iraq invasion, came about because the US left Iraq then you have everything backwards (see also your point on the Muslim Brotherhood, which was founded in 1928).

As for "blaming the West is nothing but self hatred", that is just ignorant. The history of Islam is basically one of a conflict between the easy option of close examination of the religion and the status quo, and the more difficult (to them) option of examining the world and reason with the religion as a guide. This is in essence what is happening now - the Sunni terror groups who afflict us all invariably say they want to take Islam back to the state it was in when the Prophet was alive, that the people who innovate should be destroyed etc.

Where the West is going wrong is that we have been helping to get rid of the people who innovate - the nationalists, the secularists, the democratically elected.

 

[LiamG]

You firstly said the Left caused it, then agreed the right caused it, then said "these countries need sorting", to paraphrase.

What, exactly, gives Merica the right to impose their views on countries anyrate?

Might is right.

Plus what gives the clerics the right to impose their views on the people?

Lets not pretend here. This isn't a question of the people making free choices. The first thing these clerics do after a democratic election is ban any further elections.

I don't claim we have any right. Just that for our own security needs must plus ultimately it will be better for the people.

 

[SteveSC]

I posted early in my morning, before I went to bed and now when I have woke up.

You on the other hand posted a hour after me last night. So who is it that keeps weird hours.

I will assume you have just come home drunk and that's the reason for this post.

I'm a libertarian. That's neither a hardliner or not. I'm economically on the right and socially on the traditional liberal left.

The hard left want to control both the culture (they are the new church) and the economy. The right want to control the culture but at least they don't believe in controlling the economy. I believe in small government. Actually my beliefs are pretty old school American beliefs enshrined in the constitution.

I don't need to answer any personal questions.

My views also aren't extreme. I would vote for Bill Clinton. Its the country that has moved to the extremes. Although NAFTA was a disaster.

The feck are you on about.

I live in California. It's well known here that i do and i posted at 8:30pm my time not exactly late.

Nor was i drunk not that i see what that would have to do with anything.

Early morning you posted? All of your posts yesterday are between 5pm east coast and 10pm east coast. Didn't you say you lived in NC?

How is that early morning? Confused were you are once again?

 

[roydo]

Might is right.

Holy cow. Starting to think you are a bit, well, odd.

Plus what gives the clerics the right to impose their views on the people?

Like Catholic. Anglican and Jewish ones you mean? Or just ones starting with I?

 

[ilikecheese]

What happens in a multicultural society is parties only try and win the support of the sub cultures leaders rather than their people. These leaders in turn also constantly thump the drum of identity politics and this keeps people in their respective little boxes fearing and distrusting other groups. This leads to self imposed segregation. Its by design it works like this. Its a way for the establishment to divide and conquer the electorate.

I have been to a lot of states. I have family in blue states but Ive only lived in one.

People everywhere like the same sports, the same music, more or less the same TV shows, have similar base views, even similar political views. The differences aren't huge but they are blown out of proportion because it serves the politicians interests.

I will give you a detailed response later. I have things to do.

In the meantime as a self described Libertarian would you take the time to share your thoughts on this?

https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/


Immigration

Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States
Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

Indeed, the United States is a country of immigrants, of all backgrounds and walks of life…some families have just been here for more generations than others. Newcomers bring great vitality to our society.

A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

Whether they are from India or Mexico, whether they have advanced degrees or very little education, immigrants have one great thing in common: they bravely left their familiar surroundings in search of a better life. Many are fleeing extreme poverty and violence and are searching for a free and safe place to try to build their lives. We respect and admire their courage and are proud that they see the United States as a place of freedom, stability, and prosperity.

Of course, if someone has a record of violence, credible plans for violence, or acts violently, then Libertarians support blocking their entry, deporting, and/or prosecuting and imprisoning them, depending on the offense.

Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals. Our current immigration system is an embarrassment. People who would like to follow the legal procedures are unable to because these procedures are so complex and expensive and lengthy. If Americans want immigrants to enter through legal channels, we need to make those channels fair, reasonable, and accessible.

 

[LiamG]

I used "since 1945" as it is a part of history you are more likely to understand, and because it has had a demonstrable effect on recent events. However if you think ISIS, a group that was literally founded in the US-run prison system after the Iraq invasion, came about because the US left Iraq then you have everything backwards (see also your point on the Muslim Brotherhood, which was founded in 1928).

As for "blaming the West is nothing but self hatred", that is just ignorant. The history of Islam is basically one of a conflict between the easy option of close examination of the religion and the status quo, and the more difficult (to them) option of examining the world and reason with the religion as a guide. This is in essence what is happening now - the Sunni terror groups who afflict us all invariably say they want to take Islam back to the state it was in when the Prophet was alive, that the people who innovate should be destroyed etc.

Where the West is going wrong is that we have been helping to get rid of the people who innovate - the nationalists, the secularists, the democratically elected.

ISIS formed out of al queda of Iraq. If the US hadn't of left they would never have grown into ISIS.

On to the 2nd point. Are you saying we should side with the good Muslims because I hate to tell you that's naieve. They are crazy too. Modern media destroyed Christianity in the west in under two generations. As long their media promotes the same it will do the same. Science, music, entertainment. This is the solution not putting the slightly less crazy ones in charge.

 

[LiamG]

The feck are you on about.

I live in California. It's well known here that i do and i posted at 8:30pm my time not exactly late.

Nor was i drunk not that i see what that would have to do with anything.

Early morning you posted? All of your posts yesterday are between 5pm east coast and 10pm east coast. Didn't you say you lived in NC?

How is that early morning? Confused were you are once again?

What post was earlier than 7 east coast?

Sometimes I wake up for a smoke but I can't remember posting anything.

Anyway is this really relevant.

 

[LiamG]

Like Catholic. Anglican and Jewish ones you mean? Or just ones starting with I?

They don't. I don't think people have a right to force religious people to do anything against their beliefs but I also believe in the seperation between church and state.

 

[LiamG]

I will give you a detailed response later. I have things to do.

In the meantime as a self described Libertarian would you take the time to share your thoughts on this?

https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/


Immigration

Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States
Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

Indeed, the United States is a country of immigrants, of all backgrounds and walks of life…some families have just been here for more generations than others. Newcomers bring great vitality to our society.

A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

Whether they are from India or Mexico, whether they have advanced degrees or very little education, immigrants have one great thing in common: they bravely left their familiar surroundings in search of a better life. Many are fleeing extreme poverty and violence and are searching for a free and safe place to try to build their lives. We respect and admire their courage and are proud that they see the United States as a place of freedom, stability, and prosperity.

Of course, if someone has a record of violence, credible plans for violence, or acts violently, then Libertarians support blocking their entry, deporting, and/or prosecuting and imprisoning them, depending on the offense.

Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals. Our current immigration system is an embarrassment. People who would like to follow the legal procedures are unable to because these procedures are so complex and expensive and lengthy. If Americans want immigrants to enter through legal channels, we need to make those channels fair, reasonable, and accessible.

I recognized this was the position of most libertarians in an earlier post.

Personally I think while open borders is the ultimate goal the variance between nations currently makes it impossible because it would cause too much social upheaval.

E.g. Europe worked when it was Scandinavia, Britain, France, Germany and other well developed economoes. There wasn't a migration issue because people didn't have a need to move for economic or social benefits. Problems only occurred when eastern Europe was added.

When countries are of a such vastly different economic development level immigration, trade etc needs to be controlled.

Pure libertarianism would still work but only at a high cost to the people in the developed world.

 

[Dylan]

ISIS formed out of al queda of Iraq. If the US hadn't of left they would never have grown into ISIS.

On to the 2nd point. Are you saying we should side with the good Muslims because I hate to tell you that's naieve. They are crazy too. Modern media destroyed Christianity in the west in under two generations. As long their media promotes the same it will do the same. Science, music, entertainment. This is the solution not putting the slightly less crazy ones in charge.

I just......i can't.......

Threadbanned, and be happy it isn't more.

 

[ilikecheese]

I recognized this was the position of most libertarians in an earlier post.

Personally I think while open borders is the ultimate goal the variance between nations currently makes it impossible because it would cause too much social upheaval.

E.g. Europe worked when it was Scandinavia, Britain, France, Germany and other well developed economoes. There wasn't a migration issue because people didn't have a need to move for economic or social benefits. Problems only occurred when eastern Europe was added.

When countries are of a such vastly different economic development level immigration, trade etc needs to be controlled.

Pure libertarianism would still work but only at a high cost to the people in the developed world.

Hi Liam. Soz about your threadban. Singling out 100's of millions of people as crazy probably was a mistake.

I guess I won't bother with my long winded personal experience in this country regarding America and what I believe is a multicultural society.

I also find it fascinating that you are a Trump supporting Libertarian. Trump is like a bizzaro world Libertarian. Like he is the opposite of a fiscal conservative and social progressive. But anyway I guess that doesn't matter anymore. You showed your spots again.

 

[tsubaki]

ISIS formed out of al queda of Iraq. If the US hadn't of left they would never have grown into ISIS.

On to the 2nd point. Are you saying we should side with the good Muslims because I hate to tell you that's naieve. They are crazy too. Modern media destroyed Christianity in the west in under two generations. As long their media promotes the same it will do the same. Science, music, entertainment. This is the solution not putting the slightly less crazy ones in charge.

Modern media didn't destroy Christianity in the west in under two generations. Christianity destroyed Christianity in the west, and it took nearly a thousand years to do it.