Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[Pettifogger]

I hate this argument. Every argument today starts with "well Obummer this, or KKKILLARY that" or some other anecdote about how the left left is more corrupt, or at least equally as corrupt as the right or some nonsense. All politicans are corrupt to some degree. What we're seeing now is beyond anything we've seen before. There is no comparison, and you know it, the rest of the right knows it, I mean, it's really not even debatable how absurd this whole administration is, and I just want to hear someone, anyone, admit that. And just say what @verrauxi said, which is that the right doesn't care about any of these things b/c their man "won" or something.

I mean, Trump might actually be retarded. And some on his staff definitely ARE retarded.

I thought i'd use that non-PC way of communicating b/c us snowflakes have to find our safe spaces, and the right just cannot take all this PC talk any more. They just need someone to talk straight to them

Your response is pretty much why "but obama" exists. You fairly acknowledge everyone is corrupt, and then launch into the "this is nothing like we've ever seen!!!!" thing.

I agree that Trump talks like no President, he's more childish than any President, and arguably more of an amateur than we've ever seen in the WH. So sure, I'm with you on "absurdity." But in exchange for this, will I get any acknowledgment that Trump probably isn't evil incarnate who probably didn't collude with Putin to win the election and who probably isn't ushering in the Fourth Reich? Of course not.

Instead, I'll get folks convinced that Trump was elected through collusion with Russia, that the 2016 election outcome is the product of rampant corruption, and that a tax decrease that the public increasingly supports is a sign of a backwards state.

 

[verreauxi]

My pat on the head, it seems, was quite appropriate considering your tactic of generally kicking and screaming because someone dared object to the musings of a manic loon. No, not dumb. Just infantile. Allow me to remind you that I responded by critiquing the article. You replied to that with sophomoric outrage about how Republicans pretend to care about democracy but don't, seemingly directing that at me, of course. Now you're ranting about what I do and don't believe (inaccurately, of course), and not-so-discreetly trying desperately to tie this conversation to an entirely different one (shitholes) so you can subtly call me a racist without having to actually exhibit some fortitude and utter the words.

As for the portions of the article I reference, no, it doesn't outline "serious issues," it begins with the laughably stupid idea that Trump's election is a sure sign of corruption. Starting with an emotional premise is always a sure sign of a sober, coherent pitch, isn't it? There is, quite obviously, no evidence of this whatsoever. It's the manic rantings of the #resistance, where being loud and passionate is a substitute for evidence and reason.

It continues with the idea that a tax cut for the people who actually PAY TAXES is a sign of corruption. Unfortunately for your argument, it's not corruption when one group gets to keep more of said group's own money. Truth be told, the idea that you define American corruption as, essentially "when half the country doesn't fund infrastructure, education and environmental issues to the degree I'd like" means we probably don't have anywhere to go from here. That's not a definition of corruption, it's mere whining that our economic system hasn't reached the full height of your aspirational democratic socialist ideal.

I referenced your proud proclamation that "Haiti is a shithole" not to embarrass you (again), you did that yourself, but to speak to the broader point that you and Trump are quick to cast negative aspersions on other countries, while refusing to look inward at your own country.

The first point of the article also talks about campaign finance reform and Russian meddling in our election (I never brought up the Trump election and TV coverage because TV news is asinine), the latter to which you conceded would be a huge breach of our sovereignty if they were influential, but yet Trump (whom I suspect you voted for) is literally doing nothing to investigate this. And the party you claim allegiance to (Republicans) is blocking every attempt to investigate this. This is my point about Republicans pretending to care about patriotism...right up until it doesn't suit their interests to care.

Regarding taxes, if find it easily meeting the definition of corrupt when a small group of uber-wealthy can dictate tax policies to our elected officials. And surprise, surprise...those policies just happen to be giving a tax cut to the uber-wealthy (while also tossing the middle/upper class a bone...a small tax cut which expires in 5 years). I call this "corrupt." You call it "Horray for me, I got a tax cut."

You keep repeating the old chestnut about "50% pay all of the taxes" but that Republican meme is not very convincing as has been amply documented, including here. But when people lose their jobs, or only make minimum wage (guess who likes to vote against raising it?) or have to pay into unaffordable private health care schemes (guess who wants to kick millions of people off of the ACA), they don't have to pay taxes. Nor do the elderly, who comprise a chunk of that 50%, thanks to a Republican bill. But more generally, I find it supremely ironic that Trump can talk about #MAGA, rebuilding the USA, making us great again...blah blah blah...but when I, as "Joe Liberal," talks about building up America's education, environmental stewardship, its health care, its infrastructure, it is an "aspiriational democratic socialist ideal."

Finally, it doesn't take any fortitude to call your comments about Haiti and Somalia for what they are. They are supremely ignorant and certainly in some circles would be viewed as racist. Nor does it take any fortitude, gumption, or strength of character to call your comments about the majority of Mexicans being drug-dealers for what they are: they are racist, ignorant, and idiotic. Does that make you, yourself, a racist? I can't answer that question. That's a question for you to answer via your personal relationship with white Jesus.

 

[verreauxi]

My pat on the head, it seems, was quite appropriate considering your tactic of generally kicking and screaming because someone dared object to the musings of a manic loon. No, not dumb. Just infantile. Allow me to remind you that I responded by critiquing the article. You replied to that with sophomoric outrage about how Republicans pretend to care about democracy but don't, seemingly directing that at me, of course. Now you're ranting about what I do and don't believe (inaccurately, of course), and not-so-discreetly trying desperately to tie this conversation to an entirely different one (shitholes) so you can subtly call me a racist without having to actually exhibit some fortitude and utter the words.

As for the portions of the article I reference, no, it doesn't outline "serious issues," it begins with the laughably stupid idea that Trump's election is a sure sign of corruption. Starting with an emotional premise is always a sure sign of a sober, coherent pitch, isn't it? There is, quite obviously, no evidence of this whatsoever. It's the manic rantings of the #resistance, where being loud and passionate is a substitute for evidence and reason.

It continues with the idea that a tax cut for the people who actually PAY TAXES is a sign of corruption. Unfortunately for your argument, it's not corruption when one group gets to keep more of said group's own money. Truth be told, the idea that you define American corruption as, essentially "when half the country doesn't fund infrastructure, education and environmental issues to the degree I'd like" means we probably don't have anywhere to go from here. That's not a definition of corruption, it's mere whining that our economic system hasn't reached the full height of your aspirational democratic socialist ideal.

For clarification, in what I wrote above, I should note that Trump claimed that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country were drug dealers. Trump made the comment, not you, but you agreed with it. So I should have written that I find your views that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country are drug dealers to be racist, ignorant, and idiotic.

 

[Pettifogger]

I referenced your proud proclamation that "Haiti is a shithole" not to embarrass you (again), you did that yourself, but to speak to the broader point that you and Trump are quick to cast negative aspersions on other countries, while refusing to look inward at your own country.

The first point of the article also talks about campaign finance reform and Russian meddling in our election (I never brought up the Trump election and TV coverage because TV news is asinine), the latter to which you conceded would be a huge breach of our sovereignty if they were influential, but yet Trump (whom I suspect you voted for) is literally doing nothing to investigate this. And the party you claim allegiance to (Republicans) is blocking every attempt to investigate this. This is my point about Republicans pretending to care about patriotism...right up until it doesn't suit their interests to care.

Regarding taxes, if find it easily meeting the definition of corrupt when a small group of uber-wealthy can dictate tax policies to our elected officials. And surprise, surprise...those policies just happen to be giving a tax cut to the uber-wealthy (while also tossing the middle/upper class a bone...a small tax cut which expires in 5 years). I call this "corrupt." You call it "Horray for me, I got a tax cut."

You keep repeating the old chestnut about "50% pay all of the taxes" but that Republican meme is not very convincing as has been amply documented, including here. But when people lose their jobs, or only make minimum wage (guess who likes to vote against raising it?) or have to pay into unaffordable private health care schemes (guess who wants to kick millions of people off of the ACA), they don't have to pay taxes. Nor do the elderly, who comprise a chunk of that 50%, thanks to a Republican bill. But more generally, I find it supremely ironic that Trump can talk about #MAGA, rebuilding the USA, making us great again...blah blah blah...but when I, as "Joe Liberal," talks about building up America's education, environmental stewardship, its health care, its infrastructure, it is an "aspiriational democratic socialist ideal."

Finally, it doesn't take any fortitude to call your comments about Haiti and Somalia for what they are. They are supremely ignorant and certainly in some circles would be viewed as racist. Nor does it take any fortitude, gumption, or strength of character to call your comments about the majority of Mexicans being drug-dealers for what they are: they are racist, ignorant, and idiotic. Does that make you, yourself, a racist? I can't answer that question. That's a question for you to answer via your personal relationship with white Jesus.

When you start with dumb mischaracterizations of things I've said, there just isn't anywhere to go. Your Haiti comment was irrelevant. I never "proudly" said Haiti was a shithole. I just acknowledge the truth of that fact. It's corrupt, with massive health problems, no infrastructure, extreme poverty and high crime. There is no "pride" involved. I don't get off on the idea of America being superior to Haiti. I didn't make America great, I was just born here. But I'm not such a sniveling wimp that I'm going to pretend Haiti isn't a rough place to live because it's uncouth to do so. It doesn't embarrass me that you reference true things I've stated.

There is a massive and ongoing investigation of Russian meddling, specifically focused on Trump and his associates. That Trump "is literally doing nothing to investigate this" seems rather inconsequential.

We're just not going to agree with each other on taxes. You've failed to make any (even moderately) compelling argument that an increasingly popular tax bill which is benefitting a large swath of the middle class is a sign of corruption. I note, of course, that the media has had to eat its hat on the tax bill, and Democrats don't know what to do about it, because the original "it hurts the middle class" has been met with the middle class going "how am I being hurt by keeping more of my money."

As for the rest of your pejorative blathering, Haiti and Somalia are two of the world's most horrendous countries. That we live in a world where one can't say that without being labeled a racist is a sign of the stupidity of our times. Of course, I've never said akin to "the majority of Mexicans being drug-dealers."

And let's be very clear on that particular allegation. It's a blatant lie. Things don't go your way, you don't like me as a person or my viewpoints, so you fabricate things to demonize your opponents. It's pathetic, honestly.

 

[Pettifogger]

For clarification, in what I wrote above, I should note that Trump claimed that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country were drug dealers. Trump made the comment, not you, but you agreed with it. So I should have written that I find your views that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country are drug dealers to be racist, ignorant, and idiotic.

I don't think this is honest, at all.

I happened to see a moment ago that you were one who was helpful to me when I was planning a trip to Liverpool a couple years ago. Had forgotten that. Anyway, I think you're grossly mischaracterizing, but I'm editing as to not turn up the hostility further.

 

[verreauxi]

I don't think this is honest, at all.

I happened to see a moment ago that you were one who was helpful to me when I was planning a trip to Liverpool a couple years ago. Had forgotten that. Anyway, I think you're grossly mischaracterizing, but I'm editing as to not turn up the hostility further.

I'll let it go. I grew up in Mexico (chunks of my childhood in any case). I don't find any characterization of what you said about illegal Mexicans to be in remotely good taste. You can go back read what you wrote, so can I. We can reach different conclusions about how to interpret what you wrote.

 

[Pettifogger]

I'll let it go. I grew up in Mexico. I don't find any characterization of what you said illegal Mexicans to be in remotely good taste. You can go back read what you wrote, so can I. We can reach different conclusions about that.

I honestly have no clue as to what you're referencing, but I'm quite confident I never made any sweeping or demonizing statements about Mexicans.

 

[verreauxi]

I honestly have no clue as to what you're referencing, but I'm quite confident I never made any sweeping or demonizing statements about Mexicans.

You can go to page 915 and 917 of the Trump POTUS thread if you like.

 

[Pettifogger]

You can go to page 915 and 917 of the Trump POTUS thread if you like.

What I said:

2) Trump referred to some Mexicans crossing the border illegally as drug dealers (and rapists I think). The drug dealer part is particularly accurate. He, of course, didn't label them all drug dealers.

What you said:

Nor does it take any fortitude, gumption, or strength of character to call your comments about the majority of Mexicans being drug-dealers for what they are: they are racist, ignorant, and idiotic.

I should note that Trump claimed that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country were drug dealers. Trump made the comment, not you, but you agreed with it. So I should have written that I find your views that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country are drug dealers to be racist, ignorant, and idiotic.

There are no different conclusions to draw.

 

[neil999]

When you start with dumb mischaracterizations of things I've said, there just isn't anywhere to go. Your Haiti comment was irrelevant. I never "proudly" said Haiti was a shithole. I just acknowledge the truth of that fact. It's corrupt, with massive health problems, no infrastructure, extreme poverty and high crime. There is no "pride" involved. I don't get off on the idea of America being superior to Haiti. I didn't make America great, I was just born here. But I'm not such a sniveling wimp that I'm going to pretend Haiti isn't a rough place to live because it's uncouth to do so. It doesn't embarrass me that you reference true things I've stated.

There is a massive and ongoing investigation of Russian meddling, specifically focused on Trump and his associates. That Trump "is literally doing nothing to investigate this" seems rather inconsequential.

We're just not going to agree with each other on taxes. You've failed to make any (even moderately) compelling argument that an increasingly popular tax bill which is benefitting a large swath of the middle class is a sign of corruption. I note, of course, that the media has had to eat its hat on the tax bill, and Democrats don't know what to do about it, because the original "it hurts the middle class" has been met with the middle class going "how am I being hurt by keeping more of my money."

As for the rest of your pejorative blathering, Haiti and Somalia are two of the world's most horrendous countries. That we live in a world where one can't say that without being labeled a racist is a sign of the stupidity of our times. Of course, I've never said akin to "the majority of Mexicans being drug-dealers."

And let's be very clear on that particular allegation. It's a blatant lie. Things don't go your way, you don't like me as a person or my viewpoints, so you fabricate things to demonize your opponents. It's pathetic, honestly.

doesnt the tax bill change over time to benefit higher earners? i'm sure i sure a graph of it somewhere...

 

[Pettifogger]

doesnt the tax bill change over time to benefit higher earners? i'm sure i sure a graph of it somewhere...

The individual cuts sunset I believe and the inflation metric used is expected to increase tax rates. Corporate tax rate cuts are permanent, I think. Of course, they could be reinstated.

 

[neil999]

The individual cuts sunset I believe and the inflation metric used is expected to increase tax rates. Corporate tax rate cuts are permanent, I think. Of course, they could be reinstated.

found it

 

[verreauxi]

What I said:

2) Trump referred to some Mexicans crossing the border illegally as drug dealers (and rapists I think). The drug dealer part is particularly accurate. He, of course, didn't label them all drug dealers.

What you said:

Nor does it take any fortitude, gumption, or strength of character to call your comments about the majority of Mexicans being drug-dealers for what they are: they are racist, ignorant, and idiotic.

I should note that Trump claimed that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country were drug dealers. Trump made the comment, not you, but you agreed with it. So I should have written that I find your views that the vast majority of illegal Mexicans coming into this country are drug dealers to be racist, ignorant, and idiotic.

There are no different conclusions to draw.

Last thing I'll say about this. Trump used language to refer to the majority (2 of 3, 3 of 4, 9 of 10, etc., and a majority doesn't mean "all") of Mexicans crossing into our border illegally as "drug dealers" and carrying drugs (look up his quotes). You agreed with Trump's view, calling it "particularly accurate." To me, that reflects a view you share with Trump about the identity of Mexicans crossing into our border illegally--an inaccurate view at best, and even if it were "some" (not a majority) it would still be inaccurate at best, which is why I called you out.

 

[Pettifogger]

Last thing I'll say about this. Trump used language to refer to the majority (2 of 3, 3 of 4, 9 of 10, etc., and a majority doesn't mean "all") of Mexicans crossing into our border illegally as "drug dealers" and carrying drugs (look up his quotes). You agreed with Trump's view, calling it "particularly accurate." To me, that reflects a view you share with Trump about the identity of Mexicans crossing into our border illegally--an inaccurate view at best, and even if it were "some" (not a majority) it would still be inaccurate at best, which is why I called you out.

The worst possible thing I'm guilty of is giving Trump too much benefit of the doubt in phrasing. However, it is very apparent from my post that I was not referring to all or a majority of Mexicans, nor all or a majority of Mexicans illegally crossing into the border. Much less the "vast majority" as you claim.

I interpreted Trump's statement as "some" and said so. And as I was obviously referencing "some," my point was entirely accurate. If you want to hang your position on there not being any drug dealers who cross the US-Mexico border illegally, you go right ahead. Seems bizarre to me, but maybe you've got some reason for believing that is the case. But you "called me out" by making blatantly dishonest statements about what I said and insinuated I was a bigot on the basis of those statements. Pretty absurd, IMO.

 

[Ruairi77]

The worst possible thing I'm guilty of is giving Trump too much benefit of the doubt in phrasing. However, it is very apparent from my post that I was not referring to all or a majority of Mexicans, nor all or a majority of Mexicans illegally crossing into the border. Much less the "vast majority" as you claim.

I interpreted Trump's statement as "some" and said so. And as I was obviously referencing "some," my point was entirely accurate. If you want to hang your position on there not being any drug dealers who cross the US-Mexico border illegally, you go right ahead. Seems bizarre to me, but maybe you've got some reason for believing that is the case. But you "called me out" by making blatantly dishonest statements about what I said and insinuated I was a bigot on the basis of those statements. Pretty absurd, IMO.

What ever the semantics, his intent was clear and nasty.