Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[LinekersLegs]

what does that even mean?

Germany was at war. The people's concerns were protecting their homes, getting food and praying for their loved ones' return from war fronts. The vast majority of Germans had no idea about any crimes against humanity until it all came out after the Soviets took Berlin.

The ones who did know have been charged. Even today 95+ year old Nazis are being found and charged.



a tiny amount of people. it's even illegal in Germany to publicly deny the Holocaust. That's how that's been addressed. I bet there's vastly more Holocaust-deniers in USA than in Germany.


wtf??? Legs, you're meant to be the sensible one. Who on earth is 'not sure the Holocaust was wrong'??

a tiny number of insignificant poisonous idiots who should not get the time of day.


Maybe you've been too long in America. At least you must agree that even from your perspective it appears Germany is a bit more at-ease with itself than USA...

...largely for the reasons I stated.

If instead we labelled all the German Folk as 'standing by and not stopping it' then we'd be a very different, more divisive, society.

So Hitler ran such a successful disinformation campaign within Germany both in the lead up to the war and during it that everyone not directly involved in active Nazi war crimes didn’t think anything bad was happening to Jews? It isn’t an area I have particularly looked at but seems a tad convenient.

And fwiw I also doubt US/Canadian authorities or citizens had any illusions that the St Louis passengers were going back to welcoming open arms yet still denied them entry so this is a skepticism that isn’t specific to Germans.

I do agree that Germany appears more at ease with its past than USA, thought that was clear from my original post. Don’t know how much that is due to history actually being discussed at school rather than largely buried which anecdotally seems to be the case among my friends who went through the American school system.


I’ve no idea on the current curriculum but having gone through the UK education system from what I recall I don’t there was any discussion of the Boer war at all, let alone the dreadful internment camps, India colonization was about tea and UK involvement in the slave trade was very focused on the logistics rather than the people being trafficked.

 

[dholliday]

So Hitler ran such a successful disinformation campaign within Germany both in the lead up to the war and during it that everyone not directly involved in active Nazi war crimes didn’t think anything bad was happening to Jews? It isn’t an area I have particularly looked at but seems a tad convenient.

it was generally known there was a hate campaign against jewish folk, even to the point of 'resettlement' and deportation (like what we see now in the Israel/Palestine conflict).

But actual mass murder? That insanely horrible matter became clear to the wider public once the Nazis were defeated, and all communication channels were taken over by the allies. The deadly camps & gas chambers weren't common knowledge until the allies discovered them and spread the word.

The enormous profound deep guilt many Germans feel is that they did not put two-and-two together, or not aiding jews generally, or being too afraid/preoccupied to help or speak out against the hate campaigns, or implicitly supporting jewish resettlement due to falling for the anti-jewish propaganda of the time.

Perhaps some suspected something really dark was afoot, perhaps some (outside of actual Nazis) even knew, but would remain silent.

How many German civilians knew, and what they knew, wasn't the focus of German recovery and educational programs between 1945-2000-ish. In the last 10-20 years it's been fashionable - due to american identity-politics influencing the wider western world - to study this more. But i would question the point of it, when we've already proven a positive model for the world in how to deal with a post crimes-against-humanity society.

I do agree that Germany appears more at ease with its past than USA, thought that was clear from my original post. Don’t know how much that is due to history actually being discussed at school rather than largely buried which anecdotally seems to be the case among my friends who went through the American school system.

I would hope american kids get to learn of slavery, native americans, civil rights etc...just not from the prism of CRT with its deep focus on 'whiteness' as oppressor and 'black' as victim. Did you check out that lady's short speech on CRT from my previous post?

This fella has similar views:

 

[LinekersLegs]

it was generally known there was a hate campaign against jewish folk, even to the point of 'resettlement' and deportation (like what we see now in the Israel/Palestine conflict).

But actual mass murder? That insanely horrible matter became clear to the wider public once the Nazis were defeated, and all communication channels were taken over by the allies. The deadly camps & gas chambers weren't common knowledge until the allies discovered them and spread the word.

The enormous profound deep guilt many Germans feel is that they did not put two-and-two together, or not aiding jews generally, or being too afraid/preoccupied to help or speak out against the hate campaigns, or implicitly supporting jewish resettlement due to falling for the anti-jewish propaganda of the time.

Perhaps some suspected something really dark was afoot, perhaps some (outside of actual Nazis) even knew, but would remain silent.

How many German civilians knew, and what they knew, wasn't the focus of German recovery and educational programs between 1945-2000-ish. In the last 10-20 years it's been fashionable - due to american identity-politics influencing the wider western world - to study this more. But i would question the point of it, when we've already proven a positive model for the world in how to deal with a post crimes-against-humanity society.



I would hope american kids get to learn of slavery, native americans, civil rights etc...just not from the prism of CRT with its deep focus on 'whiteness' as oppressor and 'black' as victim. Did you check out that lady's short speech on CRT from my previous post?

This fella has similar views:

This is pretty heavy and depressing stuff for a Friday night, will look tomorrow.

 

[dholliday]

This is pretty heavy and depressing stuff for a Friday night, will look tomorrow.

yeah it is...time to call it a night x

 

[RAFUH]

FTR, there’s likely to be a lot of similar bans to this one coming in other states. This is just the 21st century version of banning the teaching of Darwin’s theories on evolution. Same states, same types of people, same ass-backwards mindset.

Some of those state still aren’t fully on board with evolution

 

[summerisle]

Some of those state still aren’t fully on board with evolution

Doesn't help when you have antediluvian idiots such as :

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Doesn't help when you have antediluvian idiots such as :

In line with about 20% of Americans, unbelievably.

 

[TN Toffee]

In line with about 20% of Americans, unbelievably.

Is 20% based on actual polling, or just a number you pulled out of the air? Based on my experiences, (admittedly almost all in the South) 20% feels much, much too low.

 

[dholliday]

Some of those state still aren’t fully on board with evolution

Doesn't help when you have antediluvian idiots such as :

In line with about 20% of Americans, unbelievably.

Is 20% based on actual polling, or just a number you pulled out of the air? Based on my experiences, (admittedly almost all in the South) 20% feels much, much too low.

imagine if the somewhat-seriously considered Simulation Theory will be proved more likely than our current model...those not believing in evolution or that the world was created in 7 days will look a little less crazy.

...never say never lol

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Is 20% based on actual polling, or just a number you pulled out of the air? Based on my experiences, (admittedly almost all in the South) 20% feels much, much too low.

Yeah I read wrong. Seems to be about double that. Incredible

40% of Americans Believe in Creationism

Four in 10 Americans have a creationist view of human origins, while 33% believe humans evolved with God's guidance and 22% without it.

news.gallup.com

 

[TN Toffee]

Yeah I read wrong. Seems to be about double that. Incredible

40% of Americans Believe in Creationism

Four in 10 Americans have a creationist view of human origins, while 33% believe humans evolved with God's guidance and 22% without it.

news.gallup.com

I don’t see a big problem with people who believe in some form of God who guided the evolutionary process to where we are today. That leaves plenty of room for accepting scientific findings. It’s the people who believe the earth was created in six, 24 hour periods, 5000ish years ago that bother me. I’ve literally met people who either believe that humans and dinosaurs once walked the earth together, or that they never existed at all, and God simply placed their bones in the ground as a test of faith. It’s madness.

 

[tsubaki]

it was generally known there was a hate campaign against jewish folk, even to the point of 'resettlement' and deportation (like what we see now in the Israel/Palestine conflict).

But actual mass murder? That insanely horrible matter became clear to the wider public once the Nazis were defeated, and all communication channels were taken over by the allies. The deadly camps & gas chambers weren't common knowledge until the allies discovered them and spread the word.

The enormous profound deep guilt many Germans feel is that they did not put two-and-two together, or not aiding jews generally, or being too afraid/preoccupied to help or speak out against the hate campaigns, or implicitly supporting jewish resettlement due to falling for the anti-jewish propaganda of the time.

Perhaps some suspected something really dark was afoot, perhaps some (outside of actual Nazis) even knew, but would remain silent.

How many German civilians knew, and what they knew, wasn't the focus of German recovery and educational programs between 1945-2000-ish.

TBF there is ample evidence that the wider German public was aware of the holocaust whilst it was happening - maybe not the exact details of how it happened (as in the location of the camps and nature of the gas chambers), but certainly what was happening (that the Jews were being destroyed).

Things like jokes circulating about chimneys, contact with witnesses (from the Army and other organizations) who had personally witnessed atrocities, and foreign broadcasts were all available to the majority of the population and the internal reports of Nazi intelligence show that an understanding existed of something terminal happening. The physical structure of the holocaust - the camps, transportation, the support networks (like the census) weren't easily hidden either.

Finally there is the speeches of the leadership, which pretty directly allude (or in one case directly state) that the destruction of the Jews was happening - Himmler's "decent Jew" point makes no sense if the people did not know what was going on, for example.

There are reasonably common instances of civilians finding out about it as well, and doing something about it (of which the White Rose are the most famous). We've also got to remember that the crime didn't exist in a vacuum - the Nazi state was openly occupying most of Europe and regularly carrying out atrocities that it publicized - killing dozens for civilians for every German killed in attacks for example, or going after German "traitors", or the millions of foreign labourers forced to work in the Reich, as well as the earlier actions (against the mentally ill as well as the attacks on Jews).

The enormous guilt that most Germans of those generations felt was because they knew about it but at best did nothing and at worst actively went along with it, not that they were ignorant or duped (though it certainly benefited everyone involved to pretend the latter was the case after the war).

 

[dholliday]

TBF there is ample evidence that the wider German public was aware of the holocaust whilst it was happening - maybe not the exact details of how it happened (as in the location of the camps and nature of the gas chambers), but certainly what was happening (that the Jews were being destroyed).

Things like jokes circulating about chimneys, contact with witnesses (from the Army and other organizations) who had personally witnessed atrocities, and foreign broadcasts were all available to the majority of the population and the internal reports of Nazi intelligence show that an understanding existed of something terminal happening. The physical structure of the holocaust - the camps, transportation, the support networks (like the census) weren't easily hidden either.

Finally there is the speeches of the leadership, which pretty directly allude (or in one case directly state) that the destruction of the Jews was happening - Himmler's "decent Jew" point makes no sense if the people did not know what was going on, for example.

There are reasonably common instances of civilians finding out about it as well, and doing something about it (of which the White Rose are the most famous). We've also got to remember that the crime didn't exist in a vacuum - the Nazi state was openly occupying most of Europe and regularly carrying out atrocities that it publicized - killing dozens for civilians for every German killed in attacks for example, or going after German "traitors", or the millions of foreign labourers forced to work in the Reich, as well as the earlier actions (against the mentally ill as well as the attacks on Jews).

The enormous guilt that most Germans of those generations felt was because they knew about it but at best did nothing and at worst actively went along with it, not that they were ignorant or duped (though it certainly benefited everyone involved to pretend the latter was the case after the war).

what evidence are you referring to? citations needed.

 

[tsubaki]

what evidence are you referring to? citations needed.

somehow you managed to post a load of things without citations, so I am not sure why you demand them now

Here is one though - this is from a speech Himmler gave in 1943 (emphasis added):

I am referring here to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of the things that is easily said: "The Jewish people are going to be exterminated," that's what every Party member says, "sure, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination - it'll be done." And then they all come along, the 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his one decent Jew. Of course, the others are swine, but this one, he is a first-rate Jew. Of all those who talk like that, not one has seen it happen, not one has had to go through with it. Most of you men know what it is like to see 100 corpses side by side, or 500 or 1,000. To have stood fast through this - and except for cases of human weakness - to have stayed decent, that has made us hard. This is an unwritten and never-to-be-written page of glory in our history, for we know how difficult it would be for us if today - under bombing raids and the hardships and deprivations of war - if we were still to have the Jews in every city as secret saboteurs, agitators, and inciters. If the Jews were still lodged in the body of the German nation, we would probably by now have reached the stage of 1916-17.

 

[dholliday]

somehow you managed to post a load of things without citations, so I am not sure why you demand them now

Here is one though - this is from a speech Himmler gave in 1943 (emphasis added):

you linked a speech which was internal among top brass nazis. we're talking about the wider non-nazi civilian populatiom.