Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[dholliday]

studied them all have you

i've looked at the courses (one of which i've linked). i've read articles & listened to interviews/speeches from lecturers of said courses. i've seen an increased pre-occupation with their skin colour from my black uk/us friends, even za friends (tho' not other-africans interestingly enough...not westernised).

CRT, ala wokeism, has quickly made a mark in mainstream culture.

i don't believe it's the way forward (forward meaning let's come together in sweet harmony).

i prefer the Martin Luther King content of character tenet.

Or more recently, the Morgan Freeman one:

 

[LinekersLegs]

it means the tenets of CRT (i.e
America is fundamentally institutionally racist), typically found in most courses, are not allowed to be repeated in schools.

But you yourself seem to agree that there still exists, at least in some areas, institutional racism in the US

Plus the USA angle is so different to UK. Another thing i disagree with conservatives on concerns police brutality against black folk. Sure UK haven't been entirely innocent but in the US it's a proper epidemic. Not just George Floyd (who was clearly murdered in the coldest way feasible) but plenty others. It's truly horrifying what goes on there. And I accept it's complex, due to lax gun laws many alleged-perps may be armed (and many are)...but still, the police there tend to put oil on the fire rather than attempt to calm things down.

In Kaepernick's case, the american conservative movement had a golden opportunity to meet the Left and offer support & sympathy. They did not. Now it's barely feasible for any compromise between the two sides to occur.

People on the Left & Right seem to have a set way of thinking, so any time a new culture-war case breaks out, you can predict who will have certain views. Even on GOT.

Those in the centre who swing both ways seem to be in a minority. Whereas i'm sure that was more the norm not so long ago.

How do you think that gets addressed in the future if we just pretend it doesn’t happen when teaching kids?

And do you believe historical events that were clearly examples of institutional racism such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears should be covered?

 

[dholliday]

But you yourself seem to agree that there still exists, at least in some areas, institutional racism in the US


How do you think that gets addressed in the future if we just pretend it doesn’t happen when teaching kids?

And do you believe historical events that were clearly examples of institutional racism such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears should be covered.

yes i believe those horrific events should be covered, even in school.

CRT however appears to play identity-politics in a way which only serves to rub salt in the wounds. we should be looking back dispassionately & academically, not emotionally, not with the intention of adding to conflict.

Germany, for the most part, has shown the way with regards to education on nazism and the Holocaust. This appears to also be De Santis's intention.

 

[LinekersLegs]

yes i believe those horrific events should be covered, even in school.

CRT however appears to play identity-politics in a way which only serves to rub salt in the wounds. we should be looking back dispassionately & academically, not emotionally, not with the intention of adding to conflict.

Germany, for the most part, has shown the way with regards to education on nazism and the Holocaust. This appears to also be De Santis's intention.

Tbh I still remain very unclear on how De Santis does propose teachers handle coverage of such events, both present day and historical.

I suspect, but tbf haven’t really looked into it much, that he would not favour what I understand to be Germany’s frank and open approach to discussing nazism and the Holocaust.

 

[dholliday]

Tbh I still remain very unclear on how De Santis does propose teachers to handle such events, both present day and historical.

I suspect, but tbf haven’t really looked into it much, that he would not favour what I understand to be Germany’s frank and open approach to nazism.

we've done it dispassionately, without apportioning blame to the german citizenry of that time. the absolute horror of what went on is crystal-clear, that horror doesn't need to be fed by looking for blame, rather it needs to be quelled by ensuring the like never happens again. the blame game tends only to create more fire.

in US, that would mean covering historical racism, but not blaming white people as a whole (then or now). CRT-courses have this bad rep because many of them are quite confrontational against whiteness.

specifics, not generalisations. intellect, not emotion.

 

[LinekersLegs]

we've done it dispassionately, without apportioning blame to the german citizenry of that time. the absolute horror of what went on is crystal-clear, that horror doesn't need to be fed by looking for blame, rather it needs to be quelled by ensuring the like never happens again. the blame game tends only to create more fire.

in US, that would mean covering historical racism, but not blaming white people as a whole (then or now). CRT-courses have this bad rep because many of them are quite confrontational against whiteness.

specifics, not generalisations. intellect, not emotion.

Find it hard not to see how some blame works its way in when covering such historical horror, if only implicitly conveyed tbh.

And how do you handle coverage of the people who currently don’t agree that it was crystal clearly a horror without some commentary? For instance how would a German school expect a teacher deal with this news story? I presume it wouldn’t be actively taught but hard to see how in some, particularly older classes, the subject didn’t come up.

German Officer Goes on Trial, Accused of Plotting Far-Right Terrorism

The military officer, known as Franco A., is charged with plotting political murder in a case that has spotlighted networks of far-right extremists inside German security services.

www.nytimes.com

 

[dholliday]

Find it hard not to see how some blame works its way in when covering such historical horror, if only implicitly conveyed tbh.

And how do you handle coverage of the people who currently don’t agree that it was crystal clearly a horror without some commentary? For instance how would a German school expect a teacher deal with this news story? I presume it wouldn’t be actively taught but hard to see how in some, particularly older classes, the subject didn’t come up.

German Officer Goes on Trial, Accused of Plotting Far-Right Terrorism

The military officer, known as Franco A., is charged with plotting political murder in a case that has spotlighted networks of far-right extremists inside German security services.

www.nytimes.com

the far-right threat is overstated in Germany, because of how we've approached the history, it keeps society on guard against it.

i've lived in what some clueless leftie-student types call a 'nazi area' since 2016. but all i've ever seen are "nazis raus" and "refugees welcome" graffiti - never defaced - and we've a handful of refugee centres for years without incident. i've personally helped refugees, never sensed there's any kind of anti spirit in the air from the natives, who are DDR folk, mainly.

overstating the threat isn't a bad thing if it keeps that threat at bay, but one negative aspect i've seen concerns an open demonisation of AFD-voters (UKIP-similar party). I firmly believe modern identity-politics - which lead to wokeism & CRT - also finding its way to Germany has played a part in that.

The blame game...it's poison.

 

[Prevenger17]

CRT, ala wokeism, has quickly made a mark in mainstream culture.

D mate, I can't do this. If I see you use the term woke again I will have to blow my own brains out. Give us a shout when you've stopped, until then you're on ignore

 

[dholliday]

D mate, I can't do this. If I see you use the term woke again I will have to blow my own brains out. Give us a shout when you've stopped, until then you're on ignore

holy moly.

you know, friendships would be dull if we all had the same opinions.

by the way check out ale house, from about page 7 gets wild lol

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/most-enjoyable-activity-on-grandoldteam-com-website-of-year-1.112829/page-7

 

[LinekersLegs]

the far-right threat is overstated in Germany, because of how we've approached the history, it keeps society on guard against it.

i've lived in what some clueless leftie-student types call a 'nazi area' since 2016. but all i've ever seen are "nazis raus" and "refugees welcome" graffiti - never defaced - and we've a handful of refugee centres for years without incident. i've personally helped refugees, never sensed there's any kind of anti spirit in the air from the natives, who are DDR folk, mainly.

overstating the threat isn't a bad thing if it keeps that threat at bay, but one negative aspect i've seen concerns an open demonisation of AFD-voters (UKIP-similar party). I firmly believe modern identity-politics - which lead to wokeism & CRT - also finding its way to Germany has played a part in that.

The blame game...it's poison.

So I take you don't think this teacher should have raised this ?

Teaching the Holocaust in Germany as a Resurgent Far Right Questions It

As those who lived through it are dying off, and some people claim it never happened, what will happen to sites of remembrance?

www.theatlantic.com

Even as the students’ tour focused on helping them understand the history of this place, however, the politics of the day inevitably crept in.

At one point, the students’ teacher, Matthias Angelike, interjected to ask their guide about a recent incident involving lawmakers from the far-right populist party Alternative for Germany (AfD) and a group of their constituents. While on a tour here last summer, several members of the group interrupted their host to cast doubt on the existence of Sachsenhausen’s gas chambers and diminish the crimes committed in Nazi death camps. “They questioned whether people were actually killed here,” Angelike said to his students. “They questioned the Holocaust.”

I just don't see how you can cover the past without applying some judgement to it and touching on how it impacts current life. I get not overegging things but I simply cannot see how you could teach something like slavery or the Holocaust and not be able to say "that was wrong, we shouldn't let it happen again"

 

[dholliday]

I just don't see how you can cover the past without applying some judgement to it and touching on how it impacts current life. I get not overegging things but I simply cannot see how you could teach something like slavery or the Holocaust and not be able to say "that was wrong, we shouldn't let it happen again"

That's exactly what we do. It was utterly profoundly inhumanly wrong. And the absolute goal is for it to never get close to happening again.

But there is no focus on blaming an entire group of folk, as i said the german people of that time have not been apportioned blame.

American CRT often seeks to blame whiteness (white privilege etc) for historical and current racial issues. It holds an emotional grudge against what it sees are the perpetrators. Whereas in German history the only people who get damningly-judged are nazi-perps, not the German Folk as a whole, and the only emotion is a deep sorrow that it happened at all, and a resolve to charge every last guilty nazi standing...but not their descendents, and certainly not the german people generally.

It's a significant difference. The German way took the poison out of the healing process, thereby creating a more tolerant relaxed society. The CRT-way is putting more poison in, thereby creating an on-edge hyper-partisan environment.

I hope i've been able to explain it a bit clearer now

 

[LinekersLegs]

That's exactly what we do. It was utterly profoundly inhumanly wrong. And the absolute goal is for it to never get close to happening again.

But there is no focus on blaming an entire group of folk, as i said the german people of that time have not been apportioned blame.

American CRT often seeks to blame whiteness (white privilege etc) for historical and current racial issues. It holds an emotional grudge against what it sees are the perpetrators. Whereas in German history the only people who get damningly-judged are nazi-perps, not the German Folk as a whole, and the only emotion is a deep sorrow that it happened at all, and a resolve to charge every last guilty nazi standing...but not their descendents, and certainly not the german people generally.

It's a significant difference. The German way took the poison out of the healing process, thereby creating a more tolerant relaxed society. The CRT-way is putting more poison in, thereby creating an on-edge hyper-partisan environment.

I hope i've been able to explain it a bit clearer now

Not really as I can’t see how you can not also question the actions of the people who, even if they didn’t actual commit foul acts, stood by and didn’t stop them from happening. Let alone how you address modern people who seem to think what happened either a) actually didn’t or b) aren’t sure it was wrong but we’ll leave it there, got some cat gifs to see.

 

[dholliday]

Not really as I can’t see how you can not also question the actions of the people who, even if they didn’t actual commit foul acts, stood by and didn’t stop them from happening.

what does that even mean?

Germany was at war. The people's concerns were protecting their homes, getting food and praying for their loved ones' return from war fronts. The vast majority of Germans had no idea about any crimes against humanity until it all came out after the Soviets took Berlin.

The ones who did know have been charged. Even today 95+ year old Nazis are being found and charged.

Let alone how you address modern people who seem to think what happened either a) actually didn’t

a tiny amount of people. it's even illegal in Germany to publicly deny the Holocaust. That's how that's been addressed. I bet there's vastly more Holocaust-deniers in USA than in Germany.

or b) aren’t sure it was wrong

wtf??? Legs, you're meant to be the sensible one. Who on earth is 'not sure the Holocaust was wrong'??

a tiny number of insignificant poisonous idiots who should not get the time of day.


Maybe you've been too long in America. At least you must agree that even from your perspective it appears Germany is a bit more at-ease with itself than USA...

...largely for the reasons I stated.

If instead we labelled all the German Folk as 'standing by and not stopping it' then we'd be a very different, more divisive, society.

 

[dholliday]

So I take you don't think this teacher should have raised this ?

Teaching the Holocaust in Germany as a Resurgent Far Right Questions It

As those who lived through it are dying off, and some people claim it never happened, what will happen to sites of remembrance?

www.theatlantic.com

I just don't see how you can cover the past without applying some judgement to it and touching on how it impacts current life. I get not overegging things but I simply cannot see how you could teach something like slavery or the Holocaust and not be able to say "that was wrong, we shouldn't let it happen again"

just to address the link you posted: this concerns an alleged incident in 2018 where 5 or 6 members of a group-visit organised by AFD openly questioned the evidence of certain sites or aspects of the Holocaust.

No further proof nor allegations were made. AFD do not allow Holocaust-deniers, anti-semitists or Nazi-sympathisers to join their party. They have thrown out anyone displaying such sentiments.

My suspicion is rather that a certain segment of Germany's Left are quite enamoured by America's culture war, woke agenda and critical-race-theory programs...and they want a piece of it in Germany. Most articles slanted against AFD have a shadow-sentiment behind them, that is to mirror the US's pre-occupation with group identity.

I'm sure there are many more young German folk on the Left who would love to blame Germanness on the Holocaust than there are nazi-sympathisers in the country. By a truck load more.

 

[dholliday]

she gets it: