Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[SteveSC]

I found the Moore accusations (some of them) credible. I didn't support Moore before then, and I didn't support him after. I probably wouldn't have voted for Doug Jones (I don't live in Alabama), but I wouldn't have gone to the polls for Moore.

McConnell spoke regularly about how Moore may face discipline/investigation if he got elected. I hope that would have been true.

But yes, they are different, and it's silly to pretend otherwise. I have no idea if all the accusations (or any) are true. I think some probably are. I think some are almost certainly lies. I think it's odd that the left didn't go into an absolute outburst when it was discovered that some of the evidence used against Moore was forged. I dislike Moore, so I didn't let that change my opinion, but it also limits the amount of "do the right thing" I'm going to accept from the left when, in general, they made no apologies for blatantly lying in an attempt to disparage Moore.

I'm sorry but this is just bs. There's no pretending. Nor is it silly

Before the allegation about the women came to light one of the things Moore was known for was controversial comments about immigrants and blacks. He had been accused of racism on several occasions. The fact is there are videos of Moore being racist in his own words to crowds. Google "video of Roy Moore being racist".

So let me get this straight you dislike Moore and any other of these guys who have shown themselves to be morally inept. That is until the left and the biased media are taking a pop at them then it's lies?

You dislike him but yet defend him essentially.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

I found the Moore accusations (some of them) credible. I didn't support Moore before then, and I didn't support him after. I probably wouldn't have voted for Doug Jones (I don't live in Alabama), but I wouldn't have gone to the polls for Moore.

McConnell spoke regularly about how Moore may face discipline/investigation if he got elected. I hope that would have been true.

But yes, they are different, and it's silly to pretend otherwise. I have no idea if all the accusations (or any) are true. I think some probably are. I think some are almost certainly lies. I think it's odd that the left didn't go into an absolute outburst when it was discovered that some of the evidence used against Moore was forged. I dislike Moore, so I didn't let that change my opinion, but it also limits the amount of "do the right thing" I'm going to accept from the left when, in general, they made no apologies for blatantly lying in an attempt to disparage Moore.

This is the problem with American politics today. You acknowledge Moore was a horrible candidate, but still can't bring yourself to vote for the other person. It's all about your team "winning."

 

[Pettifogger]

I'm sorry but this is just bs. There's no pretending. Nor is it silly

Before the allegation about the women came to light one of the things Moore was known for was controversial comments about immigrants and blacks. He had been accused of racism on several occasions. The fact is there are videos of Moore being racist in his own words to crowds. Google "video of Roy Moore being racist".

So let me get this straight you dislike Moore and any other of these guys who have shown themselves to be morally inept. That is until the left and the biased media are taking a pop at them then it's lies?

You dislike him but yet defend him essentially.

Who am I defending? I'm sorry, yes, I find a distinction between an avowed Nazi and someone like Moore.

I don't even understand your point about "biased media." Moore very likely assaulted some girls. But one in particular fabricated part of the evidence used, didn't disclose it, and it took a couple of weeks of conservative blogs talking about it before she and mainstream media were forced to address it.

So, tell me how to navigate that. I think Moore sucks, and I think he's of bad character or worse, but I don't like it when I'm lied to to demonize someone and the media who hates said person goes willingly along with the lie.

 

[Pettifogger]

This is the problem with American politics today. You acknowledge Moore was a horrible candidate, but still can't bring yourself to vote for the other person. It's all about your team "winning."

What an incredibly stupid proposition. Why would I vote for someone who doesn't share my values simply because the guy on the other side sucks in a different/worse way? It's a mindnumbingly ridiculous thing to be sanctimonious about.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Who am I defending? I'm sorry, yes, I find a distinction between an avowed Nazi and someone like Moore.

I don't even understand your point about "biased media." Moore very likely assaulted some girls. But one in particular fabricated part of the evidence used, didn't disclose it, and it took a couple of weeks of conservative blogs talking about it before she and mainstream media were forced to address it.

So, tell me how to navigate that. I think Moore sucks, and I think he's of bad character or worse, but I don't like it when I'm lied to to demonize someone and the media who hates said person goes willingly along with the lie.

It's almost like Moore broke the underage girls story b/c he felt that would be easier to defend than his racism/bigotry

B/c as another poster mentioned, Moore was a horrific candidate before that story broke, but once it broke, that's what everyone latched on to, forgetting about what got him bounced off two benches and the ridiculous stuff he had said in the past.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

What an incredibly stupid proposition. Why would I vote for someone who doesn't share my values simply because the guy on the other side sucks in a different/worse way? It's a mindnumbingly ridiculous thing to be sanctimonious about.

I don't even know where to begin to respond to this.

When a candidate is so horrible, to not make a choice is implying a vote for the horrible candidate.

I liked neither presidential candidate. I'm a moderate. I could have stayed at home. 45 was such a horrible candiate I voted for Hillary.

Because of the hyper-partisan nature of our political landscape, which has only gone into overdrive in the social media/Fox News era, it saddens me that seemingly no one will cross party lines to vote.

It's distinctly un American

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Everything I've said is correct.

The GOP is a clownshow, but to the extent you're saying that as though the DNC isn't -- LOL. Moore is an imbecile and I'm glad Alabama didn't elect him.

I think you probably ARE right. I am far less confident that you would be right if he was running in a competitive race.

The DNC does plenty i don’t agree with. They’re not even CLOSE to being on a level with the Republicans though.

 

[SteveSC]

It's almost like Moore broke the underage girls story b/c he felt that would be easier to defend than his racism/bigotry

B/c as another poster mentioned, Moore was a horrific candidate before that story broke, but once it broke, that's what everyone latched on to, forgetting about what got him bounced off two benches and the ridiculous stuff he had said in the past.

He toes the GOP line. Just like many of the GOP politicians seems to only handle one accusation at a time and gloss over the rest of it or simply ignore it or maybe say the left are lying about it all.

They must have a playbook book for this:

- Defend him and say how good of a person he is.
- Accuse the left of lying or call the media biased
- Say nothing
- Attack the victims
- Oh and when its found to be true say you never supported him to begin with.
- That you never really knew them and they were not important
- Attack the media again and still say they lied and went too far.
- Blame Obama and Hilary and drag up some random meeting they had with someone years ago to show they do the same with no substance.

How many aides, campaign people, politican's, political donors have they used the above for now.

 

[Ruairi77]

I don't even know where to begin to respond to this.

When a candidate is so horrible, to not make a choice is implying a vote for the horrible candidate.

I liked neither presidential candidate. I'm a moderate. I could have stayed at home. 45 was such a horrible candiate I voted for Hillary.

Because of the hyper-partisan nature of our political landscape, which has only gone into overdrive in the social media/Fox News era, it saddens me that seemingly no one will cross party lines to vote.

It's distinctly un American

Good post, I'm probably not moderate but I sucked it up and voted for Clinton

 

[SteveSC]

Who am I defending? I'm sorry, yes, I find a distinction between an avowed Nazi and someone like Moore.

For the third time. There is enough evidence to suggest Moore himself is racist. Or do they have to be flag waving swastika wearing nazi before you will acknowledge there maybe some truth to it.

There are quotes of speeches he made. Video evidence of him making racially charged opinions.

 

[Pettifogger]

I don't even know where to begin to respond to this.

When a candidate is so horrible, to not make a choice is implying a vote for the horrible candidate.

I liked neither presidential candidate. I'm a moderate. I could have stayed at home. 45 was such a horrible candiate I voted for Hillary.

Because of the hyper-partisan nature of our political landscape, which has only gone into overdrive in the social media/Fox News era, it saddens me that seemingly no one will cross party lines to vote.

It's distinctly un American

So if I find an ideology to be counter to my beliefs about what America is about, I should nonetheless vote for said candidate to defeat a guy who is a bad human being, rather than staying at home. If I don't, I'm unAmerican?

Like I said, it's a horrendously stupid argument.

 

[Pettifogger]

For the third time. There is enough evidence to suggest Moore himself is racist. Or do they have to be flag waving swastika wearing nazi before you will acknowledge there maybe some truth to it.

There are quotes of speeches he made. Video evidence of him making racially charged opinions.

I don't know whether Moore is racist. I think he said some pretty dumb and probably offensive things pertaining to race. But "racially charged" isn't racist. I'm one of those people who doesn't believe everything pertaining to race is racism.

Moore could be a racist. I don't know. But the guy who claims that his race is inherently superior to other races? Yeah, that guy is racist. Hence the distinction.

It's intellectually problematic, IMO, to lump in Moore with an admitted Nazi. It diminishes what it means to be a Nazi, which may be the purpose in doing it. That way, you're only a few steps from being able to label anyone a Nazi. For example, I believe Islam is a false religion. How close am I to being a Nazi, if that contributes to Moore's being "almost a Nazi"?

In short, I think your comparison of Moore as a sexual assaulter to Nazism is less problematic. It's different, but I don't really object to saying one sort of evil is akin to another. I do reject the slippery slope of comparing "racially charged" statements to Nazism.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

I don't know whether Moore is racist. I think he said some pretty dumb and probably offensive things pertaining to race. But "racially charged" isn't racist. I'm one of those people who doesn't believe everything pertaining to race is racism.

Moore could be a racist. I don't know. But the guy who claims that his race is inherently superior to other races? Yeah, that guy is racist. Hence the distinction.

It's intellectually problematic, IMO, to lump in Moore with an admitted Nazi. It diminishes what it means to be a Nazi, which may be the purpose in doing it. That way, you're only a few steps from being able to label anyone a Nazi. For example, I believe Islam is a false religion. How close am I to being a Nazi, if that contributes to Moore's being "almost a Nazi"?

In short, I think your comparison of Moore as a sexual assaulter to Nazism is less problematic. It's different, but I don't really object to saying one sort of evil is akin to another. I do reject the slippery slope of comparing "racially charged" statements to Nazism.

We can agree to disagree I guess. I think it's pretty clear where Moore stands. I guess i don't know where the line ends in reference to a race "being inherently superior to others" and begins to be merely that races other than yours are a nuisance to society

 

[BlueTX]

So if I find an ideology to be counter to my beliefs about what America is about, I should nonetheless vote for said candidate to defeat a guy who is a bad human being, rather than staying at home. If I don't, I'm unAmerican?

Like I said, it's a horrendously stupid argument.

It is actually not a horrendously stupid argument and your response, in fact, is in large part what is wrong with the hyper-partisanship of this country. In effect, what you are doing is putting your ideas/beliefs above the best interest of continuing democratic (small d) ideals and the interest of your community or the country as a whole.

At one time I was a Democratic Party precinct chair. I have helped direct campaigns for people I believe in. I've volunteered a load of hours working in my spare time for Democratic candidates. I've also known some Dem candidates who were horribly unfit to serve office and voted the GOP candidate to do my part to ensure someone who is unfit to serve as a representative of my community does not hold office.

It is just not enough to not vote for a Nazi or a wife-beater or a murderer...

 

[Pettifogger]

We can agree to disagree I guess. I think it's pretty clear where Moore stands. I guess i don't know where the line ends in reference to a race "being inherently superior to others" and begins to be merely that races other than yours are a nuisance to society

You're getting caught up in my opinion of whether Moore is a racist or not, which really isn't at issue. My point is that I think refusing to distinguish between a Nazi and someone like Moore, who you may very well believe is racist, is problematic.