Game Of Thrones: Season 8

[JimmyK]

Us or the writers of GoT?

Haha I was just looking at those memes a couple of pages back. The idea that everything has to tie neatly together, and everybody has to have a 'character arc' that reaches the exact conclusion you wanted, in the exact way you wanted it, it's weird.

How many times do you see on the news a murderer or terrorist or whatever being described as a normal, happy, seemingly harmless person? But then you get people saying it's completely unbelievable that a character who has always had a bad temper and questionable motives snaps and does something terrible because the writers didn't spell out that it was going to happen for 6 weeks in advance.

 

[Nymzee]

not read them, but supposedly the end points are the same...

Nah, and I don’t suspect Martin will tailor his last two books to suit the series. I hope he finishes the series the way he’s always wanted to.

 

[devogue]

Still can't get over how many Dothraki and Unsullied were left. I re-watched the Siege of Casterly Rock where lots of Unsullied died, and the Train Battle where lots of Dothraki died as well, and I don't understand how any were left at all after the Battle of Winterfell.

 

[Zezti]

 

[tsubaki]

Still can't get over how many Dothraki and Unsullied were left. I re-watched the Siege of Casterly Rock where lots of Unsullied died, and the Train Battle where lots of Dothraki died as well, and I don't understand how any were left at all after the Battle of Winterfell.

Certainly with the Unsullied (where there were never more than 8000 + the trainees she bought from Astapor), but the Dothraki was apparently every khalasar that existed at the time (as Dany had become khal of them all when she killed all the other khals).

 

[Neiler]

Haha I was just looking at those memes a couple of pages back. The idea that everything has to tie neatly together, and everybody has to have a 'character arc' that reaches the exact conclusion you wanted, in the exact way you wanted it, it's weird.

How many times do you see on the news a murderer or terrorist or whatever being described as a normal, happy, seemingly harmless person? But then you get people saying it's completely unbelievable that a character who has always had a bad temper and questionable motives snaps and does something terrible because the writers didn't spell out that it was going to happen for 6 weeks in advance.

I find the whole Danny went bananas all of a sudden narrative odd to be honest, i think on reflection its more that people including myself didnt identify it and we are all not as clever as we think we are.

Look at her character, parents and sibling murdered, orphaned and forced to leave her home, abused by her brother, sold into marriage, sexually assaulted, husband died, lost a baby, kidnapped, betrayed by those closest to her, watched her two dragons get killed, watched her best mate be beheaded. Is it really that hard to understand that she descended into madness or prone to extreams act of violence based on simple psychology.

As the above events unfolded and accumulated, so did her acts of violence, complicit in her brothers murder, burning alive a midwife, locking some dude in a vault, burning alive a slave master, crucifying all the master in mereen, feeding one dude to her dragon, burning all the Khals to death, returning to Mereen and killing the rest of the masters in Mereen who had invaded, Killing the Lanisters at high garden, burning the Tarleys. Is it really a huge leap to killing and burning the whole of kings landing.

It actually is a very logical and noticeable escalating pathway when you break it down. I didnt notice it mind and i think because of that it was the twist of the entire series. It plays on your own concepts of good guys and bad and the moralities.

I think people think it was all of a sudden, but if they honestly reflect on it, it was logical and they just didnt identify it as clever as we all like to be about GOT, we were asleep at the wheel. It was actually very subtle, slow and nuanced over many series's - very clever.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

 

[Deckard2049]

I find the whole Danny went bananas all of a sudden narrative odd to be honest, i think on reflection its more that people including myself didnt identify it and we are all not as clever as we think we are.

Look at her character, parents and sibling murdered, orphaned and forced to leave her home, abused by her brother, sold into marriage, sexually assaulted, husband died, lost a baby, kidnapped, betrayed by those closest to her, watched her two dragons get killed, watched her best mate be beheaded. Is it really that hard to understand that she descended into madness or prone to extreams act of violence based on simple psychology.

As the above events unfolded and accumulated, so did her acts of violence, complicit in her brothers murder, burning alive a midwife, locking some dude in a vault, burning alive a slave master, crucifying all the master in mereen, feeding one dude to her dragon, burning all the Khals to death, returning to Mereen and killing the rest of the masters in Mereen who had invaded, Killing the Lanisters at high garden, burning the Tarleys. Is it really a huge leap to killing and burning the whole of kings landing.

It actually is a very logical and noticeable escalating pathway when you break it down. I didnt notice it mind and i think because of that it was the twist of the entire series. It plays on your own concepts of good guys and bad and the moralities.

I think people think it was all of a sudden, but if they honestly reflect on it, it was logical and they just didnt identify it as clever as we all like to be about GOT, we were asleep at the wheel. It was actually very subtle, slow and nuanced over many series's - very clever.

Don't want to parrot stuff I have read elsewhere but this reddit thread (if you can be bothered to take a glance) sums up the issues I have with your opinion.



From a modern, moral standpoint the majority of the actions of all the characters could be viewed as "immoral" and downright insane.
How people interpret the actions is up to them I get that. But are you seriously saying that the show did not revel in the spectacle of Dany appearing on Drogon destroying the Lannister army? Or that destroying the masters fleets with her dragons after her return to Mereen was not depicted as a triumphant victory? That entire season 6, Tyrion attempted to diplomatically handle the situation in Mereen. He constantly failed. What was the resolution? Brute dragon force. What lesson was the show teaching there? I would disagree vehemently with you that the leap to killing innocent people and children was just not too big. Now if they hadn't rushed it, I'm perfectly accepting of the fact that she could possibly have descended into madness. I would however use the show's own history against it and say that Cersei's actions and descent into madness which culminated in her blowing up a huge part of the city were completely believable and seemed to develop organically from season 1 through to that point. The examples your giving for Dany are being completely taken out of context and retconned. Now the show (Kit Harington has said this) is attempting to say that we the fans are complicit because we supported Dany for years and that she has never been a good person? It's laughable. Honestly, you're giving those hack writers way too much credit here. It's not a case of the audience not being as clever as we think they are. It's the writers pulling an absolute 180 because they could no longer be bothered with the show.

I would also read this


Lastly, if they were setting Dany up to be the villain then this season finale was a great expectation subverter wasn't it?

 

[Neiler]

Don't want to parrot stuff I have read elsewhere but this reddit thread (if you can be bothered to take a glance) sums up the issues I have with your opinion.



From a modern, moral standpoint the majority of the actions of all the characters could be viewed as "immoral" and downright insane.
How people interpret the actions is up to them I get that. But are you seriously saying that the show did not revel in the spectacle of Dany appearing on Drogon destroying the Lannister army? Or that destroying the masters fleets with her dragons after her return to Mereen was not depicted as a triumphant victory? That entire season 6, Tyrion attempted to diplomatically handle the situation in Mereen. He constantly failed. What was the resolution? Brute dragon force. What lesson was the show teaching there? I would disagree vehemently with you that the leap to killing innocent people and children was just not too big. Now if they hadn't rushed it, I'm perfectly accepting of the fact that she could possibly have descended into madness. I would however use the show's own history against it and say that Cersei's actions and descent into madness which culminated in her blowing up a huge part of the city were completely believable and seemed to develop organically from season 1 through to that point. The examples your giving for Dany are being completely taken out of context and retconned. Now the show (Kit Harington has said this) is attempting to say that we the fans are complicit because we supported Dany for years and that she has never been a good person? It's laughable. Honestly, you're giving those hack writers way too much credit here. It's not a case of the audience not being as clever as we think they are. It's the writers pulling an absolute 180 because they could no longer be bothered with the show.

I would also read this


Lastly, if they were setting Dany up to be the villain then this season finale was a great expectation subverter wasn't it?

All those points you are making mate work on the presumption that the purpose of the show was to send a moral message, both continuously and ultimately. When really it wasn't and never was the purpose of the show, the exact opposite in fact. The play was the very thing you are objecting about, that Danny did this and it was good, because they were bad and the show portrayed like a victory etc, its playing on your perception.

Thats the beauty, everyone was tricked into believing something was good and heroic when ultimately its possible it was in fact violent and possible or those things existed together. People are capable of good and evil, those two thing exist together and one of those attributes can be followed in the pursuit or used to justify the other. Its not linear its complex and the show reflects that.

What was the moral?

"Power resides where man believes it resides". Ultimately your perception and belief was tricked, but on reflection you can see the pathway and descent and is actually logical.

The writers stitched up the whole fan base and were very clever, if im honest most fans myself included were asleep at the wheel and are annoyed now, that never saw it coming.

Its why they are searching or wanting everything to fit into the right happy ever ending predictable narrative they thought characters were building towards. That not what Thrones ever was or ever tried to be.

 

[Osamabindiesel]

The problem I have with Dany’s character arc is that it’s all a bit too random. She had moments of caving to her impulses that indicated she may go nuts, but it was counterbalanced by plenty acts of kindness.

So, we are left with a character that is conflicted? GOOD. Find a way to advance the madness in a reasonable time frame. Hell, if anything, have a rogue spear hit John as the bell is being rung. At the very least, it would justify her impulse to burn the whole city down. She was unprovoked and almost seemed to act on a whim. It was silly. I laughed uncontrollably.

 

[nsno-chris]

Still raging at that mess

 

[Deckard2049]

All those points you are making mate work on the presumption that the purpose of the show was to send a moral message, both continuously and ultimately. When really it wasn't and never was the purpose of the show, the exact opposite in fact. The play was the very thing you are objecting about, that Danny did this and it was good, because they were bad and the show portrayed like a victory etc, its playing on your perception.

Thats the beauty, everyone was tricked into believing something was good and heroic when ultimately its possible it was in fact violent and possible or those things existed together. People are capable of good and evil, those two thing exist together and one of those attributes can be followed in the pursuit or used to justify the other. Its not linear its complex and the show reflects that.

What was the moral?

"Power resides where man believes it resides". Ultimately your perception and belief was tricked, but on reflection you can see the pathway and descent and is actually logical.

The writers stitched up the whole fan base and were very clever, if im honest most fans myself included were asleep at the wheel and are annoyed now, that never saw it coming.

Its why they are searching or wanting everything to fit into the right happy ever ending predictable narrative they thought characters were building towards. That not what Thrones ever was or ever tried to be.

Here’s my issue mate. You’re praising writers who also gave us “Dany kind of forgot about the iron fleet”. That puts a bit of spanner in the work in regards to the idea that they could pull off the kind of long game you’re giving them credit for. Honestly the writing this entire season just kind of refutes your point. I know we’re talking specifically about Dany here so I won’t bring other stuff in just to back myself up, but really it’s just been all so bad. Really bad.

Like I said though compare this descent into madness with Cersei’s. It’s night and day. Or another example is Stannis. The point where he burns his daughter was a horrible, yet also natural way to close up his arc and expose the horrible side to his character that had been there since day 1. You completely believed in that sequence of events. You believed that in his own weird way he still loved his daughter even as she burned at the stake because he was convinced it was necessary to get him on the throne. It was the point of no return for him. The common theme here is these descents took their time. They weren’t rushed from point A to point B.

But I appreciate your view mate (I mean that as well, don’t want that to come across like I’m a tw*t). For me I just don’t think there’s enough in the show to justify Dany’s genocide of kings landing. I could see how you could interpret a lot of her plot points as foreshadowing what happened but not for me.

 

[Neiler]

Here’s my issue mate. You’re praising writers who also gave us “Dany kind of forgot about the iron fleet”. That puts a bit of spanner in the work in regards to the idea that they could pull off the kind of long game you’re giving them credit for. Honestly the writing this entire season just kind of refutes your point. I know we’re talking specifically about Dany here so I won’t bring other stuff in just to back myself up, but really it’s just been all so bad. Really bad.

Like I said though compare this descent into madness with Cersei’s. It’s night and day. Or another example is Stannis. The point where he burns his daughter was a horrible, yet also natural way to close up his arc and expose the horrible side to his character that had been there since day 1. You completely believed in that sequence of events. You believed that in his own weird way he still loved his daughter even as she burned at the stake because he was convinced it was necessary to get him on the throne. It was the point of no return for him. The common theme here is these descents took their time. They weren’t rushed from point A to point B.

But I appreciate your view mate (I mean that as well, don’t want that to come across like I’m a tw*t). For me I just don’t think there’s enough in the show to justify Dany’s genocide of kings landing. I could see how you could interpret a lot of her plot points as foreshadowing what happened but not for me.

All good mate, I’m not trying to win hearts and minds, I’ve just reflected on it a fair bit and those are the conclusions I’ve reached. I think the fact the ending has left everyone so unsettled, is actually the general point, I think that was purposeful, as the writers set out to challenge your own concepts of absolute good and absolute evil and whether the two can exist together, can you like and abhor both when your loyalty chair terms is questioned morally.

John and Danny represent this, both have been portrayed as good, however both have committed acts of violence and arguably evil. Danny destroyed a city women and children, John hung a child and ultimately killed Danny. Both these things a perceptionl. The purpose in my opinion was to leave us conflicted overall and challenge our perceptions of the characters, good and evil etc. “power (good and evil) resides were men perceive it to be”. We are supposed to be conflicted and have our perceptions challenged.

For one example who is to say ultimately who was good and evil between Danny and a John, was she really mad? Or did she just have a different political belief to John, he just didn’t agree and killed her. Whose to say Danny wasn’t the hero ultimately, that her way wasnt the right way and John just killed her because he didn’t agree, perhaps he’s the evil. Like I say the outcome of what you believe will be based on your perceptions of what you believe in the narrative and ending.

Just to be balanced, I wasn’t a huge fan of the rest of the finale after Danny’s death it was all a bit slap stick and happy clappy for me, I was expecting see an Ewok heading of with John into the forest, or Captain Jack Sparrow to pop on Arya ship, Sansa was never a character I had any interest in to be honest, I wasn’t a huge fan of how the emphasised her at all in the series as some kind of political heavy weight, dour, boring and pointless.

 

[DanEFC92]

Here’s my issue mate. You’re praising writers who also gave us “Dany kind of forgot about the iron fleet”. That puts a bit of spanner in the work in regards to the idea that they could pull off the kind of long game you’re giving them credit for. Honestly the writing this entire season just kind of refutes your point. I know we’re talking specifically about Dany here so I won’t bring other stuff in just to back myself up, but really it’s just been all so bad. Really bad.

Like I said though compare this descent into madness with Cersei’s. It’s night and day. Or another example is Stannis. The point where he burns his daughter was a horrible, yet also natural way to close up his arc and expose the horrible side to his character that had been there since day 1. You completely believed in that sequence of events. You believed that in his own weird way he still loved his daughter even as she burned at the stake because he was convinced it was necessary to get him on the throne. It was the point of no return for him. The common theme here is these descents took their time. They weren’t rushed from point A to point B.

But I appreciate your view mate (I mean that as well, don’t want that to come across like I’m a tw*t). For me I just don’t think there’s enough in the show to justify Dany’s genocide of kings landing. I could see how you could interpret a lot of her plot points as foreshadowing what happened but not for me.

And the season before. Still not got my head around the whole sending the magnificent 7 (Inc. King of the North ffs) over the wall to grab a wight, just to show Cersei. So so dumb. Signs were there that they wouldn't be able to finish the story off in a competent way.

 

[Tree13]

I just watched the finale. Very, very poor.

Amazing that the writers had an extra year to put this season together and actually made it worse than season 7.

I genuinely feel sorry for every member of the cast and crew - the technical work with the cameras, the scoring by the musical department, the FX guys, the costumers in wardrobe, the actors were all at their very best this season and the writers literally tossed coins at various points to decide what would happen next. Such a desperate shame that a show that was arguably the best tv ever seen for the first five seasons was ultimately let down by the exact thing that made it so great for those earlier seasons: the writing. Overtaking the source material has proved to be every bit as bad a mistake as some of us warned it would be, and sadly the warnings were there to see as early as season five. No wonder so many major cast members have been caught in interviews expressing disappointment with the concluding episodes.

The one person who wins in this scenario however is GRRM. Those next two books are going to break all kinds of sales records.