Current Affairs Free Speech

[Seathestars]

The mods are missing a great opportunity to wind posters up by not closing this thread.

Welcome back mate, how did you escape?

 

[kenada_blue]

Gender pay gap - I don’t recall complaints of a pay gap for people performing the same role. A general gap exists though, largely because women - along with POC - are woefully underrepresented at exec level.

Racism - Whether it is more or less racists than any other given time period, it is still unacceptably racist at a systemic level. Just because it might not be as bad as the 19xx’s, doesn’t make it good.

Trans women are indeed women. Where does biology enter into gender identity? I understand the point you’re trying to make re reproductive organs but it’s invalid. In this day and age, anyone should be able to identify as whichever gender (if any) they feel best suits them. It’s an odd concept for me to get my head around, admittedly, but that’s very much my issue. And please - just on the off chance you were planning on it - spare me the “hilarious” Piers Morgan-esque “I IDENTIFY AS A CARROT THEN!” retort. Kids kill themselves in heartbreaking numbers over others’ refusal to see them as they see themselves. What they have in their kecks has nothing to do with it.

Think Tubey makes a great point at the fact that these issues are multi faceted but get brought down to their basic level to "prove" theres huge issue.

Gender pay gap for example - Stats are usually generated through different metrics. Most don't take into consideration maternity, women not returning to work, and different levels of pay ranges. They take pay from top executives and bungle them in with the average Joe which skews the overall results in favour of men who will generally work more hours and hold executive roles.

The issue then isn't the pay gap, but the disparity in gender for roles. Which then splits off into executive roles and lower pay roles which are another topic entirely.

But a lot of people don't want to hear that. They want this issue heard and it fixed. Similar to that institutionlised racism report that's come out.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Think Tubey makes a great point at the fact that these issues are multi faceted but get brought down to their basic level to "prove" theres huge issue.

Gender pay gap for example - Stats are usually generated through different metrics. Most don't take into consideration maternity, women not returning to work, and different levels of pay ranges. They take pay from top executives and bungle them in with the average Joe which skews the overall results in favour of men who will generally work more hours and hold executive roles.

The issue then isn't the pay gap, but the disparity in gender for roles. Which then splits off into executive roles and lower pay roles which are another topic entirely.

But a lot of people don't want to hear that. They want this issue heard and it fixed. Similar to that institutionlised racism report that's come out.

Yes, just today, there was a report on the radio that Wiltshire ( I think) police force has more women employees that male, but that the gender pay gap still exists. They did not mention the fact that most of those women will be admin/phone type work and some in reduced hours whilst the men will more likely be active police men and senior ranking officers. There are increasingly more women in these roles and so the ay gap will, ultimately reduce.

 

[dead_soft]

Think Tubey makes a great point at the fact that these issues are multi faceted but get brought down to their basic level to "prove" theres huge issue.

Gender pay gap for example - Stats are usually generated through different metrics. Most don't take into consideration maternity, women not returning to work, and different levels of pay ranges. They take pay from top executives and bungle them in with the average Joe which skews the overall results in favour of men who will generally work more hours and hold executive roles.

The issue then isn't the pay gap, but the disparity in gender for roles. Which then splits off into executive roles and lower pay roles which are another topic entirely.

But a lot of people don't want to hear that. They want this issue heard and it fixed. Similar to that institutionlised racism report that's come out.

What do you mean by 'get brought down to their basic level to prove there's a huge issue'? By who? It does matter who is doing it and why, Most people I know who deal with social or political issues are definitely more nuanced than most others I know. There may be some headlines or shortened phrasing used at points but I really don't think it'd be fair to characterise most people involved in work on equality of not being nuanced or dealing with complex thoughts or issues.

The reason the gender pay gap is an important metric is because it is important to know the earning power of women relative to men. Financial independence helps people leave marriages, raise children, become better educated.

 

[kenada_blue]

What do you mean by 'get brought down to their basic level to prove there's a huge issue'? By who? It does matter who is doing it and why, Most people I know who deal with social or political issues are definitely more nuanced than most others I know. There may be some headlines or shortened phrasing used at points but I really don't think it'd be fair to characterise most people involved in work on equality of not being nuanced or dealing with complex thoughts or issues.

The reason the gender pay gap is an important metric is because it is important to know the earning power of women relative to men. Financial independence helps people leave marriages, raise children, become better educated.

Of course. I was just pointing out that there's a lot of generalisation. Clearly aimed at more the social media outrange porn brigade that take things at face value, want change now, then get upset when opposing, constructive, and valid points are made.

I never said the gender pay gap wasn't important but pointing out that there's more factors in relation to certain statistics.

 

[dead_soft]

Of course. I was just pointing out that there's a lot of generalisation. Clearly aimed at more the social media outrange porn brigade that take things at face value, want change now, then get upset when opposing, constructive, and valid points are made.

I never said the gender pay gap wasn't important but pointing out that there's more factors in relation to certain statistics.

Well, yes, people generalise, but I'm not sure most people actively involved won't be getting into nuance and complexity. If it's just some people getting annoyed about the wrong thing on social media that's the problem I think it's probably not that big a deal.

But the more factors aren't always useful when discussing the gender pay gap. It's not just about whether women are CEOs or not, it's about the gap in earning. The nuance come in WHY this exists, but the 'men do higher paid jobs' isn't really a useful addition to the discussion, for example. And the lack of nuance in one poster's comment of 'it's literally illegal' shows lack of nuance and outrage wouldn't be confined to one side.

 

[kenada_blue]

Well, yes, people generalise, but I'm not sure most people actively involved won't be getting into nuance and complexity. If it's just some people getting annoyed about the wrong thing on social media that's the problem I think it's probably not that big a deal.

But the more factors aren't always useful when discussing the gender pay gap. It's not just about whether women are CEOs or not, it's about the gap in earning. The nuance come in WHY this exists, but the 'men do higher paid jobs' isn't really a useful addition to the discussion, for example. And the lack of nuance in one poster's comment of 'it's literally illegal' shows lack of nuance and outrage wouldn't be confined to one side.

Agreed.

But I do think it's a big deal as it seems to be driving the narrative. Unless that's just what I'm seeing especially when an easy to say slogan is attached to it cos "Gender Pay Gap" covers more ground than the "women get paid less than men" argument (which I think that's what Tubey was replying to) for example

 

[kenada_blue]

Yes, just today, there was a report on the radio that Wiltshire ( I think) police force has more women employees that male, but that the gender pay gap still exists. They did not mention the fact that most of those women will be admin/phone type work and some in reduced hours whilst the men will more likely be active police men and senior ranking officers. There are increasingly more women in these roles and so the ay gap will, ultimately reduce.

Of course. It usually comes down to areas in business or sectors rather than blanket disparity.

Very rare do they do statistics based on the lower salaried workers to see who gets paid what. Mainly down to the fact that unions usually sort that out and there's generally uproar internally if Joey gets paid more than Sandra doing the same job on the phones.

Hell, took me 10 years to get to the pay grade I'm on at our place. Then they ended up putting new starters up to the same pay bracket to bring things "in line". Fuming I was.

 

[Tubey]

Well, yes, people generalise, but I'm not sure most people actively involved won't be getting into nuance and complexity. If it's just some people getting annoyed about the wrong thing on social media that's the problem I think it's probably not that big a deal.

But the more factors aren't always useful when discussing the gender pay gap. It's not just about whether women are CEOs or not, it's about the gap in earning. The nuance come in WHY this exists, but the 'men do higher paid jobs' isn't really a useful addition to the discussion, for example. And the lack of nuance in one poster's comment of 'it's literally illegal' shows lack of nuance and outrage wouldn't be confined to one side.

It is literally illegal to be paid less for the same job. That doesn't need nuance - it's a fact.

You have a problem with it because it doesn't support an overall argument.

 

[dead_soft]

It is literally illegal to be paid less for the same job. That doesn't need nuance - it's a fact.

You have a problem with it because it doesn't support an overall argument.

No, I don't have a problem with the fact it is illegal. I have a problem with the idea that means either

a. It can't happen
b. Very similar roles have different names/banding
c. There aren't societal issues that mean women earn less than men

That is where nuance comes in.
Furthermore, you decided a meaning of 'the gender pay gap' which isn't correct in all situations, and certainly not in the most useful ones. Women earn less than men. That is a fact. It doesn't mean conversation around it stops then.

Also, you decide people's intentions a lot, it would help if you could be a bit less close minded and assume everyone is so easily pigeon holed

 

[Tubey]

No, I don't have a problem with the fact it is illegal. I have a problem with the idea that means either

a. It can't happen
b. Very similar roles have different names/banding
c. There aren't societal issues that mean women earn less than men

That is where nuance comes in.
Furthermore, you decided a meaning of 'the gender pay gap' which isn't correct in all situations, and certainly not in the most useful ones. Women earn less than men. That is a fact. It doesn't mean conversation around it stops then.

Also, you decide people's intentions a lot, it would help if you could be a bit less close minded and assume everyone is so easily pigeon holed

A. It can't happen.
B. They're not the same role then.
C. Irrelevant.

 

[Seathestars]

Gender pay gap - I don’t recall complaints of a pay gap for people performing the same role. A general gap exists though, largely because women - along with POC - are woefully underrepresented at exec level.

Racism - Whether it is more or less racists than any other given time period, it is still unacceptably racist at a systemic level. Just because it might not be as bad as the 19xx’s, doesn’t make it good.

Trans women are indeed women. Where does biology enter into gender identity? I understand the point you’re trying to make re reproductive organs but it’s invalid. In this day and age, anyone should be able to identify as whichever gender (if any) they feel best suits them. It’s an odd concept for me to get my head around, admittedly, but that’s very much my issue. And please - just on the off chance you were planning on it - spare me the “hilarious” Piers Morgan-esque “I IDENTIFY AS A CARROT THEN!” retort. Kids kill themselves in heartbreaking numbers over others’ refusal to see them as they see themselves. What they have in their kecks has nothing to do with it.

So you’re ok with a guy identifying as a woman using the same toilet as your young daughter. Give me a break.

 

[dead_soft]

A. It can't happen.
B. They're not the same role then.
C. Irrelevant.

A. How can’t it happen?
B. Or they are and they are ways around on a technicality.
C. It’s not. It’s literally the point of research and discussion around the gender pay gap.

Absolutely bizarre. The gender pay gap is the difference in pay between men and women. It exists and it is a very important topic.

 

[Tubey]

A. How can’t it happen?
B. Or they are and they are ways around on a technicality.
C. It’s not. It’s literally the point of research and discussion around the gender pay gap.

Absolutely bizarre. The gender pay gap is the difference in pay between men and women. It exists and it is a very important topic.

As in it literally can't happen. You can't pay someone less for the exact same job - it doesn't matter what the job title is, if the job is the same it doesn't matter.

It quite literally doesn't happen. The fact you continue to say it is possible highlights my exact point that people with causes are often wrong.

 

[Brett Angell Delight]

So you’re ok with a guy identifying as a woman using the same toilet as your young daughter. Give me a break.

This is such a straw man argument it drives me mad. Why, all of a sudden, does being a trans woman make that person a sexual deviant who goes round assaulting people in toilets? I GUARANTEE that more assaults take place by (cis) men in ladies’ toilets than by trans women.

It’s also curious that this argument is never used in reference to trans men.