Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[Zatara]

I'm not sure what your point is, but one of the criteria for judging whether Martinez is suitable or not for Everton is to judge his performance against his peers (a far more relevant judgement than judging him against former Everton managers in former times under different circumstances). In this respect it is clear that Martinez has underperformed when you look at the performances of Ranieri, Pochettino and Bilic for example. In industry, CEOs are judged against their peers, so I do not find it irregular to consider judging Martinez in a similar manner.

The fact that the media consider us to be worthy of competing for a top 4 place just adds to what the football industry already thinks - we have a squad which should be competing for a top four place. Development of that squad as a result of increased purchasing power (Moshiri and broadcasting revenues) then increases the expectation not just to compete for top 4 but to go higher than that. An objective surely every Evertonian should wish for?

I didnt have a point. I was just trying to decipher your responses to @davek

In this 'business' or 'game' the points dont really hold weight as theyre totally subjective.

The fact is that he has a contract and is within this contract as is Lukaku.

I find it odd that this thread has become another 'Martinez Out ' thread which just highlights a few things about those types of posters. On the flip side Lukaku is also under contract yet is treated extremely differently by the EXACT SAME POSTERS.

It puzzles me why one is getting all this negative treatment when he has been a fantastic ambassador for the club yet the other is the 'hero' for saying he wants to leave.

Illogical.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

My uncle passed away outside the ground after a torrid relegation scrap. Not saying this to be morbid as it was a fitting way to go and we won. But I've decide to take it all a bit less seriously since. What's worrying is how quickly I'm drawn back in.
He'd have loved Lukaku.

Sorry to hear what happened to your uncle mate.

Hear what your saying, you can easily get dragged into the debate too much without realising.

 

[The Esk]

I didnt have a point. I was just trying to decipher your responses to @davek

In this 'business' or 'game' the points dont really hold weight as theyre totally subjective.

The fact is that he has a contract and is within this contract as is Lukaku.

I find it odd that this thread has become another 'Martinez Out ' thread which just highlights a few things about those types of posters. On the flip side Lukaku is also under contract yet is treated extremely differently by the EXACT SAME POSTERS.

It puzzles me why one is getting all this negative treatment when he has been a fantastic ambassador for the club yet the other is the 'hero' for saying he wants to leave.

Illogical.

Think you are misinterpreting my position.

I want Martinez out of our club at the end of the season as he doesn't possess the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire.

I want Lukaku to stay at our club as he posseses all of the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire. For him to stay though we need an experienced, winning management team and an enhanced squad to fulfil his and our ambitions.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Think you are misinterpreting my position.

I want Martinez out of our club at the end of the season as he doesn't possess the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire.

I want Lukaku to stay at our club as he posseses all of the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire. For him to stay though we need an experienced, winning management team and an enhanced squad to fulfil his and our ambitions.

Sums up my opinion exactly.

Such a shame that in all likelihood the opposite is going to occur.

Can't see Martinez being removed, and can't see Rom being with us on 1st September.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Thats the best bit, he starts talking about playing like Barca.

With British dross.

@kithnou Dross?

Seriously?

 

[oldblue]

Sorry to hear what happened to your uncle mate.

Hear what your saying, you can easily get dragged into the debate too much without realising.

Thanks for that. Fair few years ago.
Yeah I find myself joining in and saying I don't care too much then it's full on obsessive

 

[mkrudden]

Think you are misinterpreting my position.

I want Martinez out of our club at the end of the season as he doesn't possess the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire.

I want Lukaku to stay at our club as he posseses all of the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire. For him to stay though we need an experienced, winning management team and an enhanced squad to fulfil his and our ambitions.

May I ask two questions...

If in any business, a person is given a 5 year timeline to develop something - a reasonable amount of time based on a whole load of factors...

Do you think it's fair to judge him before the deadline?
Would you not look at the bumps along the way as part of the process?

 

[Zatara]

Think you are misinterpreting my position.

I want Martinez out of our club at the end of the season as he doesn't possess the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire.

I want Lukaku to stay at our club as he posseses all of the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire. For him to stay though we need an experienced, winning management team and an enhanced squad to fulfil his and our ambitions.

Actually while i disagree with your opinion i wasnt referring to you specifically regarding the points i questioned on the different treatment of lukaku/martinez.

On the topic of a 'winning management team' @mkrudden and @davek actually both hit the nail on the head. Lets say Martinez is fired and we hire an amazing manager on paper,lets say Pep as hes the flavour at the moment....

We give him a 5 year contract then sack him half way through as he hasnt finished the job.

Seems a bit daft doesnt it?

 

[The Esk]

May I ask two questions...

If in any business, a person is given a 5 year timeline to develop something - a reasonable amount of time based on a whole load of factors...

Do you think it's fair to judge him before the deadline?
Would you not look at the bumps along the way as part of the process?

Firstly, the idea that a 5 year contract equates to a 5 year deadline to achieve something is somewhat strange. If I gave someone a 5 year contract, yes I'd expect development time, but 3 years in I'd expect real progress to meeting obhectives. As discussed ad nauseum there is no progress only regression.

Also in an industry where the average tenure is 13 or 14 months, I'd say someone about to complete their third year has had a very fair cracking of the whip.

This is not a knee jerk reaction to a short term blip, it's an appropriate response to a failing project.

 

[The Esk]

Actually while i disagree with your opinion i wasnt referring to you specifically regarding the points i questioned on the different treatment of lukaku/martinez.

On the topic of a 'winning management team' @mkrudden and @davek actually both hit the nail on the head. Lets say Martinez is fired and we hire an amazing manager on paper,lets say Pep as hes the flavour at the moment....

We give him a 5 year contract then sack him half way through as he hasnt finished the job.

Seems a bit daft doesnt it?

Should we extend the same loyalties to failing players as you are suggesting to failing managers?

 

[BLUEBERT]

Think you are misinterpreting my position.

I want Martinez out of our club at the end of the season as he doesn't possess the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire.

I want Lukaku to stay at our club as he posseses all of the abilities required to take us to the levels we aspire. For him to stay though we need an experienced, winning management team and an enhanced squad to fulfil his and our ambitions.

We need Jose in ASAP !!

 

[davek]

And thats what you're thinking when he makes the same in game mistakes time and time again? When games crying out for subs at important junctures pass by with nary a whimper? When players take the field and have to be hooked at half time because they aren't ready? When basic mistakes in tactics get punished by teams we historically spank? When a player has to make a horrifying gaffe to get the hook after everyone has realised six months ago he's mentally crocked?

For all those things you constantly mention, you MUST watch games and in your experience from watching football for many years how could you bear witness to some abominations on the pitch and continue to turn a blind eye? The Arsenal game turned even the purists around to realising that this guy just aint equipped to deal with the Premiership. Cups, yep. Any sort of team with tactics, forget it.

Come on Dave. Aren't you secretly pulling your hair out like the rest of us?

All I see is mass hysteria. I think it's fair to say that many people posting here have no idea of what a failing manager looks like. Let me educate you: it's not one midtable and in two cup SFs....no matter how much you jump up and down and stamp your feet.

 

[nsno-chris]

All I see is mass hysteria. I think it's fair to say that many people posting here have no idea of what a failing manager looks like. Let me educate you: it's not one midtable and in two cup SFs....no matter how much you jump up and down and stamp your feet.

You do know we lost one semi final, you can't use a lost semi final as a barometer of success you absolute loon

 

[The Esk]

We need Jose in ASAP !!

No thanks, really not Jose.

 

[nsno-chris]

All I see is mass hysteria. I think it's fair to say that many people posting here have no idea of what a failing manager looks like. Let me educate you: it's not one midtable and in two cup SFs....no matter how much you jump up and down and stamp your feet.

I'll let tell you what a failing manager looks like though

4 home wins all season