Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
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The Esk said:
The basic economics is that we as a nation of 60 million people purchase more goods from Europe than we sell to a market of 500 million. If we focused on the opportunities to expand our share of the Single Market rather than economic growth rates we'd realise that Europe is a massively under-exploited market for the Brits.

We are infinitely stronger in Europe and focusing on capturing more market share than we ever will be cast adrift in an increasingly protectionist global market place.
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The first paragraph contradicts the second, though.

One of the reasons Europe is a massively under-exploited market for Brits is because of the risks associated with competing with other parts of the EU, specifically those parts of their economy that other EU member states consider vital. Whilst the EU takes the form that it does, from inside there is no way we will ever grow our manufacturing base (for instance) because to do so would negatively affect the German manufacturing base, the German economy and ultimately the German government. So we leave manufacturing here to gently decline, whilst they leave our financial / services sector alone, and of course neither of us messes with the CAP because of the impact that it would have on the French.

All in all it leads to is economic specialization and stagnation, or worse in the southern EU states who aren't powerful enough to protect their own economic interests and who don't (yet) export labour to the richer states. If we are out of the EU as it currently exists, there won't be the incentive to accept this state of affairs and competition will probably bring some of our manufacturing base back (as well as losing some financial business to Europe, though you would imagine most of the nations that remain would balk at Frankfurt becoming the financial hub for the entire EU).

Of course, if the EU decided to reform the nation states out of existence and become one United States of Europe (something which is conspicuously not on the table anytime soon despite it being the stated goal of the union), then I do think we would be stronger as a part of it than by staying outside.
 
peteblue said:
Not quite. The EPO is in effect a regional Patent Office covering all Eu countries. Anyone outside of the EPO would also apply to the EPO for patents via the Patent Cooperation Treaty. It will make no difference in application nor the granting of a patent. In respect of trademarks, designs, and copyright, similarly we would just go through the normal bodies that we are already signed up to, both in Europe and Internationally.The only issue is the one Bruce raised about the fact that initially the EPO would be in the UK before it moves.
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With respect I disagree and I have a fair amount of experience in this field - it would be a barrier to future investment.

By way of reference I am a shareholder in a private company in Norway that has huge issues on this front.
 
The Esk said:
With respect I disagree and I have a fair amount of experience in this field - it would be a barrier to future investment.

By way of reference I am a shareholder in a private company in Norway that has huge issues on this front.
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Since Brexit then the stock market has boomed so you should have done very well?
 
The Esk said:
The basic economics is that we as a nation of 60 million people purchase more goods from Europe than we sell to a market of 500 million. If we focused on the opportunities to expand our share of the Single Market rather than economic growth rates we'd realise that Europe is a massively under-exploited market for the Brits.

We are infinitely stronger in Europe and focusing on capturing more market share than we ever will be cast adrift in an increasingly protectionist global market place.
Click to expand...

It is purely an internal Market, if we sell more then someone else in the EU sells less, unless the EU grows massively or generates large numbers of international free trade agreements which it isn't doing. The EU will die if it just looks in on itself. Its a stitch up with Germany as the main beneficiary. As a proportion of our total trade it has been reducing year on year and will only continue to reduce as other EU 'partners' take Market share. The standards bodies are effectively there to maintain Germany's advantage and keep the USA and others out. The stuff we buy from the EU is overpriced and we could source cheaper elsewhere and our ability to get into new markets would be speeded up. Watch how quickly we do deals with the USA, Canada, Australia, China etc versus the glacial pace of the EU......it's time to break out.....
 
tsubaki said:
The first paragraph contradicts the second, though.

One of the reasons Europe is a massively under-exploited market for Brits is because of the risks associated with competing with other parts of the EU, specifically those parts of their economy that other EU member states consider vital. Whilst the EU takes the form that it does, from inside there is no way we will ever grow our manufacturing base (for instance) because to do so would negatively affect the German manufacturing base, the German economy and ultimately the German government. So we leave manufacturing here to gently decline, whilst they leave our financial / services sector alone, and of course neither of us messes with the CAP because of the impact that it would have on the French.

All in all it leads to is economic specialization and stagnation, or worse in the southern EU states who aren't powerful enough to protect their own economic interests and who don't (yet) export labour to the richer states. If we are out of the EU as it currently exists, there won't be the incentive to accept this state of affairs and competition will probably bring some of our manufacturing base back (as well as losing some financial business to Europe, though you would imagine most of the nations that remain would balk at Frankfurt becoming the financial hub for the entire EU).

Of course, if the EU decided to reform the nation states out of existence and become one United States of Europe (something which is conspicuously not on the table anytime soon despite it being the stated goal of the union), then I do think we would be stronger as a part of it than by staying outside.
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Excellent post.....Apart from the last para, as I'd rather be the 51st state of the USA than a part of the USE......
 
This is one of those briefing notes.....no doubt others seeking business may put a different slant on things.....

"The most important thing for IP practitioners and owners to remember is that there is currently no need to panic."

At present, patent law across Europe is not generally harmonised by EU legislation and although a "European Patent" is available through the European Patent Office, it is, in effect, a bundle of national patents accessed via a central application process. The UK's access to the European Patent system is not dependent on being in the EU and it will continue as normal whatever the outcome of the exit negotiations. The key area likely to be affected, unless the issue is resolved upon exit, is that of supplementary protection certificate (SPCs). SPCs are available to extend the life of a patent (normally restricted to twenty years from the date of filing) for certain, limited types of invention (primarily pharmaceutical inventions). Since the SPC regime operates via an EU Regulation, it would not automatically apply to allow the grant of SPCs post Brexit. Many states have national SPC regimes however (Switzerland being one, which is based on the EU model) and Norway and Iceland have effectively opted in to the EU SPC regime through their EEA membership. It is possible that UK could come to a similar arrangement.
The bigger question in patent law is what impact Brexit will have on the progress of the Unitary Patent and Unified Patent Court (UPC), for which UK support has been important. Unlike the current European patent, the Unitary Patent, once launched, will be tied to the EU. The UK's support for the Unitary Patent and Unified Patent Court scheme has been crucial to getting it off the ground and it is one of three nations which must ratify the final UPC Agreement. It is likely that Italy, as the next largest state for patent grant, will have to step up to replace UK as a ratifying party, but there are more practical concerns too. One of three Central Division Courts was to be based in London (this one dealing with disputes relating to life sciences patents) but post Brexit, it seems unlikely that it will remain in London.
 
The Italian government has an incredibly long history of catastrophic governance though so it's a bit rich to try and pin the blame for their bungling on the EU. If anything, they're a good example of the sovereignty that remains, as they've managed to balls things up quite nicely on their own for a while now.
 
Joey66 said:
All the pro EU avocates really need to see how the Eu is functionuing as Italy are a big player in the EU - why do they not want to leave that sort of utter mess forced on italy by the Euro and the polictical elite of the EU??????????????????????
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Don't know why myself but each to there own.
I just look around me and see wages stagnating or lowering in real terms, job security none existent, home ownership down, young people with near to no chance of getting a roof over there heads, but we can house a million and a half EU workers since 2010 , seems to me some are to concerned about the UKplc rather than what it means to the real lives and aspirations of are own people who are less fortunate and have been swept under the carpet to long by the elite in power.
Saying that you could be talking about most of the EU with that statement.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
The Italian government has an incredibly long history of catastrophic governance though so it's a bit rich to try and pin the blame for their bungling on the EU. If anything, they're a good example of the sovereignty that remains, as they've managed to balls things up quite nicely on their own for a while now.
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They have been in the EU project since the start what was it something like 1958.
Members of the Euro zone since its conception, and have been running there economy for the last quarter of a century to stay within that, as a result they cant restructure there banking system as they want because it breaks Eurozone rules of membership.
but its nothing to do with the EU its the Mussolini or somebody else's fault.
 
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