The sooner we sign article 50 the better IMO!
Current Affairs EU In or Out
- Thread starter micknick
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peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
You are right of course. But I do worry about poking Russia. The Eu has no defence except for France the UK and the USA. The rest of it is worth sod all. The EU however keep pushing the boundaries and indeed Ukraine towards EU membership. Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons because of a guarantee given by the USA, UK and Russia regarding its independence. The EU however not only pushed Russia to the limit by trying to pull it in, but Merkel and France took responsibility for negotiating a ceasefire and sanctions. The CrImea, to me , has always been Russian and as it is Russia's biggest Naval base with a preponderance of Russian speaking people is Russian.
The EU however are starting to believe that they are this great power, built on wealth, and do things as if they are so, but the problem being that they have no military to back up this arrogance, just the UK, France and USA. So while I sometimes go OTT about how they behave, I try to do so by looking at it from the Russian perspective, a country that could very easily run straight across Europe in a matter of weeks without the support of UK, France and USA. So it really galls me that this financial giant yet military pygmy tries to act as this super power.
Toffeelover
Player Valuation: £80m
I think they underestimate Putin. Let's be clear, Putin grew up in the Soviet Union, and is an old fashioned Soviet who believes in the maxims of that time, (Stalin - Kruschev). Through him Russia is flexing it's military muscle not just helping Syria or the excursions into Ukraine but now look at the military build up in Kalingard. Putin by this means is exerting his influence very far.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Putin is prepared. NATO at the moment is not. The EU and some of its nations like to talk tough because it's got it's mates (USA,UK,France) around it. For me, I would like to see the USA and UK stand back, let France make its own decision which I believe would be to stand back, and put these ridiculous people in Brussels on the spot to work it out with Russia. A dose of reality is exactly what these people need.......
Powerful analysis of Brexit (that in the main I agree with) from left wing journalist John Pilger
http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe
The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.
This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.
A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.
Immigration was exploited in the campaign with consummate cynicism, not only by populist politicians from the lunar right, but by Labour politicians drawing on their own venerable tradition of promoting and nurturing racism, a symptom of corruption not at the bottom but at the top. The reason millions of refugees have fled the Middle East - irst Iraq, now Syria - are the invasions and imperial mayhem of Britain, the United States, France, the European Union and Nato. Before that, there was the wilful destruction of Yugoslavia. Before that, there was the theft of Palestine and the imposition of Israel.
The pith helmets may have long gone, but the blood has never dried. A nineteenth century contempt for countries and peoples, depending on their degree of colonial usefulness, remains a centrepiece of modern "globalisation", with its perverse socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor: its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour; its perfidious politicians and politicised civil servants.
All this has now come home to Europe, enriching the likes of Tony Blair and impoverishing and disempowering millions. On 23 June, the British said no more.
The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".
The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain's second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, "experiencing the effects of extreme poverty" and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.
Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about "leaving Europe", as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.
On the morning after the vote, a BBC radio reporter welcomed politicians to his studio as old chums. "Well," he said to "Lord" Peter Mandelson, the disgraced architect of Blairism, "why do these people want it so badly?" The "these people" are the majority of Britons.
The wealthy war criminal Tony Blair remains a hero of the Mandelson "European" class, though few will say so these days. The Guardian once described Blair as "mystical" and has been true to his "project" of rapacious war. The day after the vote, the columnist Martin Kettle offered a Brechtian solution to the misuse of democracy by the masses. "Now surely we can agree referendums are bad for Britain", said the headline over his full-page piece. The "we" was unexplained but understood - just as "these people" is understood. "The referendum has conferred less legitimacy on politics, not more," wrote Kettle. " ... the verdict on referendums should be a ruthless one. Never again."
The kind of ruthlessness Kettle longs for is found in Greece, a country now airbrushed. There, they had a referendum and the result was ignored. Like the Labour Party in Britain, the leaders of the Syriza government in Athens are the products of an affluent, highly privileged, educated middle class, groomed in the fakery and political treachery of post-modernism. The Greek people courageously used the referendum to demand their government sought "better terms" with a venal status quo in Brussels that was crushing the life out of their country. They were betrayed, as the British would have been betrayed.
On Friday, the Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was asked by the BBC if he would pay tribute to the departed Cameron, his comrade in the "remain" campaign. Corbyn fulsomely praised Cameron's "dignity" and noted his backing for gay marriage and his apology to the Irish families of the dead of Bloody Sunday. He said nothing about Cameron's divisiveness, his brutal austerity policies, his lies about "protecting" the Health Service. Neither did he remind people of the war mongering of the Cameron government: the dispatch of British special forces to Libya and British bomb aimers to Saudi Arabia and, above all, the beckoning of world war three.
In the week of the referendum vote, no British politician and, to my knowledge, no journalist referred to Vladimir Putin's speech in St. Petersburg commemorating the seventy-fifth anniversary of Nazi Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June, 1941. The Soviet victory - at a cost of 27 million Soviet lives and the majority of all German forces - won the Second World War.
Putin likened the current frenzied build up of Nato troops and war material on Russia's western borders to the Third Reich's Operation Barbarossa. Nato's exercises in Poland were the biggest since the Nazi invasion; Operation Anaconda had simulated an attack on Russia, presumably with nuclear weapons. On the eve of the referendum, the quisling secretary-general of Nato, Jens Stoltenberg, warned Britons they would be endangering "peace and security" if they voted to leave the EU. The millions who ignored him and Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama and the man who runs the Bank of England may, just may, have struck a blow for real peace and democracy in Europe.
http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe
The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.
This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.
A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.
Immigration was exploited in the campaign with consummate cynicism, not only by populist politicians from the lunar right, but by Labour politicians drawing on their own venerable tradition of promoting and nurturing racism, a symptom of corruption not at the bottom but at the top. The reason millions of refugees have fled the Middle East - irst Iraq, now Syria - are the invasions and imperial mayhem of Britain, the United States, France, the European Union and Nato. Before that, there was the wilful destruction of Yugoslavia. Before that, there was the theft of Palestine and the imposition of Israel.
The pith helmets may have long gone, but the blood has never dried. A nineteenth century contempt for countries and peoples, depending on their degree of colonial usefulness, remains a centrepiece of modern "globalisation", with its perverse socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor: its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour; its perfidious politicians and politicised civil servants.
All this has now come home to Europe, enriching the likes of Tony Blair and impoverishing and disempowering millions. On 23 June, the British said no more.
The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".
The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain's second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, "experiencing the effects of extreme poverty" and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.
Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about "leaving Europe", as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.
On the morning after the vote, a BBC radio reporter welcomed politicians to his studio as old chums. "Well," he said to "Lord" Peter Mandelson, the disgraced architect of Blairism, "why do these people want it so badly?" The "these people" are the majority of Britons.
The wealthy war criminal Tony Blair remains a hero of the Mandelson "European" class, though few will say so these days. The Guardian once described Blair as "mystical" and has been true to his "project" of rapacious war. The day after the vote, the columnist Martin Kettle offered a Brechtian solution to the misuse of democracy by the masses. "Now surely we can agree referendums are bad for Britain", said the headline over his full-page piece. The "we" was unexplained but understood - just as "these people" is understood. "The referendum has conferred less legitimacy on politics, not more," wrote Kettle. " ... the verdict on referendums should be a ruthless one. Never again."
The kind of ruthlessness Kettle longs for is found in Greece, a country now airbrushed. There, they had a referendum and the result was ignored. Like the Labour Party in Britain, the leaders of the Syriza government in Athens are the products of an affluent, highly privileged, educated middle class, groomed in the fakery and political treachery of post-modernism. The Greek people courageously used the referendum to demand their government sought "better terms" with a venal status quo in Brussels that was crushing the life out of their country. They were betrayed, as the British would have been betrayed.
On Friday, the Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was asked by the BBC if he would pay tribute to the departed Cameron, his comrade in the "remain" campaign. Corbyn fulsomely praised Cameron's "dignity" and noted his backing for gay marriage and his apology to the Irish families of the dead of Bloody Sunday. He said nothing about Cameron's divisiveness, his brutal austerity policies, his lies about "protecting" the Health Service. Neither did he remind people of the war mongering of the Cameron government: the dispatch of British special forces to Libya and British bomb aimers to Saudi Arabia and, above all, the beckoning of world war three.
In the week of the referendum vote, no British politician and, to my knowledge, no journalist referred to Vladimir Putin's speech in St. Petersburg commemorating the seventy-fifth anniversary of Nazi Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June, 1941. The Soviet victory - at a cost of 27 million Soviet lives and the majority of all German forces - won the Second World War.
Putin likened the current frenzied build up of Nato troops and war material on Russia's western borders to the Third Reich's Operation Barbarossa. Nato's exercises in Poland were the biggest since the Nazi invasion; Operation Anaconda had simulated an attack on Russia, presumably with nuclear weapons. On the eve of the referendum, the quisling secretary-general of Nato, Jens Stoltenberg, warned Britons they would be endangering "peace and security" if they voted to leave the EU. The millions who ignored him and Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama and the man who runs the Bank of England may, just may, have struck a blow for real peace and democracy in Europe.
Armel
Player Valuation: £15m
Oh one of my favorite topics- unfortunately I'm one of the only people who thinks that so I'm not going to annoy people with it. Let's just say it's not as straightforward to assume it's Russian. See the Crimean Wars and my most favourite treaty ever (not more important than the other treaties, I just really like it); the treaty of Hünkâr İskelesi.
I'll admit though that the EU should not have meddled in Ukraine; was a stupid thing to do because of the very complicated situation.
Well yes most of the EU militaries are quite useless; I do think most have nuclear weapons. Hell even we (Belgium) have nuclear weapons and our general policy is not to deploy troops where they run the risk of getting into serious harm. A EU military is really quite a logical step. For instance the Belgian and Dutch military already are very much integrated; cost-effective. We also do a lot of stuff with the French so it's really quite logical. The thing is around here you'll find no one who wants to invest in the military; we don't like it. It's always the first post for budget cuts. Hell if you want to see the consequences of war you can drive anywhere here in Belgium and you'll find loads. Ieper (It always irks me btw when people write Ypres- that's the French name it's a Flemish town), the Ardennes ... . The investments have increased though after the Brussels attacks.
The EU is a great power but only has economic and political power; which is fine by me. A modern day war would be extremely devastating; M.A.D nobody can be that stupid. Hmm France has the biggest army of Europe; not that they always use it for the greater good but at least they have it I presume. I like French people btw.
Contrary to popular opinion I also don't believe that Putin has an expansionist agenda. I don't like him, I am not a fan but I don't fear him. Nobody wants to run over Europe. His population also doesn't want this. It's a bit like wrestling - fake. A mate of mine; Russian who came to Belgium when he was 12, problematic for him he's having troubles here with women . So he found himself a fiancée in Russia; not difficult apparently. So he's over there (Moscow) three months a year (all of his holidays). Nobody over there has a problem with Europeans; they are a bit angry over the sanctions though. One of the many bad consequences of that was the fact that they had to sign a really bad gas deal with the Chinese - cost them billions.
For Belgium an ending to these sanctions would be very good; would largely negate the effects of a Brexit. Germany too would fare well under such a change. Won't happen though, a shame.
So let's all keep calm and carry on. I'd worry more about Southampton.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Very well put, but I'm not sure your point about nuclear weapons is quite right. While the USA has deployed weapons within a number of European countries I believe that they are under the strict control of the USA and not deployable by the host country........
Armel
Player Valuation: £15m
Well I can only speak for Belgium; but in Kleine Brogel (location) there are supposed to be 20 nuclear warheads (more than enough). Every year people complain that they want them out of Belgium. They were originally put there by the Americans correct; but they are aeroplane deployed so strictly speaking I really think you can do with them whatever you want. Until the 1970's there were also American military men but they have vanished. There is a similar arrangement for Germany and Holland. I imagine there could be more seeing that Belgium houses the headquarters of NATO. Now they have B61 Type or such. Plus the American regularly put new weapons there, this really angers the protesters.
Pienaar's gloves
Player Valuation: £35m
Like I said mate, I want talking about you.
I realised that afterwards, as I stated I had not kept up to speed on this thread last night as it does seem to be going around in circles as I stated let's be civil in debate - my message board has been hammered tonight has it not @Bungle with others! lol
All in the best possible taste I may add
Pienaar's gloves
Player Valuation: £35m
I realised that afterwards, as I stated I had not kept up to speed on this thread last night as it does seem to be going around in circles as I stated let's be civil in debate - my message board has been hammered tonight has it not @Bungle with others! lol
All in the best possible taste I may add
It's alright mate, I think that whilst we disagree on the fundamentals here that you're most likely a sound gentleman with your intentions in the right place.
In all honesty, I have no disagreements with you as a man and hope that your health is as good as can be. I mean that fella. As you've said, all Evertonians and the like.
I don't hold you accountable for the views of all the people on your side of the debate. Some are racist, but most aren't. I don't believe that you are. Likewise, some are xenophobic and most aren't. I don't believe that you are.
Some of the folk on the Brexit side feel like they can insult those on the remain side without the same restrictions.
I don't believe that you are of that ilk, I believe that you mean well.
I don't have any issue with you. My argument is not ad-hominem.
I won't stop arguing for what I see as right, but from a personal point of view, I wish you all the best.
Martin's already lost almost everything – he voted leave to spread ...
Pilger could also have added Martin's story to why a hell of a lot of people voted out, to give Cameron a kicking. It worked. Cameron left and took his vicious DWP sanctioning regime with him. This has allowed sections of the working class, the poor, vulnerable and disabled to breath a huge sigh of relief as the feared stopping of benefits - more than often underhandedly - seems to have been halted. A great victory in itself.
joey_macmo
Player Valuation: £35m
Again Joey I'd be weary of quoting a politician who is the Chief Cheerleader of the OBR when they are on his side of he argument.
The Esk
Player Valuation: £70m
It should be remembered that the £122bn additional borrowing is based on the following growth rates being achieved throughout the Brexit negotiations and immediately after:
2016: 2.1%
2017: 1.4%
2018: 1.7%
2019: 2.1%
2020: 2.1%
2021: 2.0%
Highly optimistic given 3 out of 4 sector in the economy retracted in Q3 2016 (saved only by seasonal factors in the service industry).
2016: 2.1%
2017: 1.4%
2018: 1.7%
2019: 2.1%
2020: 2.1%
2021: 2.0%
Highly optimistic given 3 out of 4 sector in the economy retracted in Q3 2016 (saved only by seasonal factors in the service industry).
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
I don't think I've ever seen a growth forecast projection hit its number, it either beats it or doesn't make it. I think Brexit will be the cloak to hide other sins......
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