Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Barnfred 55]

I'm not suggesting nothing will be done, merely that believing we are somehow acting in accordance to the wishes of every leave voter is impossible. This is not the will of the majority as a) we don't know what that is, and b) it is very unlikely to be a homogeneous whole.

Are you a politician Bruce?, because that is very much a politicians answer. If you're not suggesting we do nothing what are you suggesting?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you are saying that we should only act in accordance with the majority, but that we have no way of knowing what the majority view is or that it would be homogenous as a whole. So in other words, if we don't know how to act, how can we do anything?

 

[Barnfred 55]

I think it's inevitable mate there will be an early GE.

So do I, and I really think it will backfire big time on the very people who are pushing it through by giving the government a hard time over the Brexit terms. I believe they are playing into Theresa May's hands.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Are you a politician Bruce?, because that is very much a politicians answer. If you're not suggesting we do nothing what are you suggesting?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you are saying that we should only act in accordance with the majority, but that we have no way of knowing what the majority view is or that it would be homogenous as a whole. So in other words, if we don't know how to act, how can we do anything?

I perhaps didn't make myself very clear. I'm not suggesting that we should only act in accordance with the majority as that's impossible to do. I'm suggesting that this basic fact should prevent people suggesting that Brexit in any form whatsoever should be undertaken simply because it is the 'will of the majority' and therefore some kind of democracy. If anything, it underlines the fallacy of a referendum and the silliness of suggesting they be used to drive policy making.

Now, of course, you could follow this on and suggest that the only true democracy is a market in which we each get to choose what we want, without at the same dictating the choice of others, and I'd be very receptive to that, but it'd be veering from the point a touch

 

[Barnfred 55]

lol I perhaps didn't make myself very clear. I'm not suggesting that we should only act in accordance with the majority as that's impossible to do. I'm suggesting that this basic fact should prevent people suggesting that Brexit in any form whatsoever should be undertaken simply because it is the 'will of the majority' and therefore some kind of democracy. If anything, it underlines the fallacy of a referendum and the silliness of suggesting they be used to drive policy making.

Now, of course, you could follow this on and suggest that the only true democracy is a market in which we each get to choose what we want, without at the same dictating the choice of others, and I'd be very receptive to that, but it'd be veering from the point a touch

We're on opposite sides of the table here mate but I agree with a lot of what you say there, including the unattainable democratic Utopia.

But I'll play devil's advocate and throw your own argument back at you. In the unlikely event (in my personal view) that Parliament actually manage to agree on a strategy for Brexit, how does anybody know that it represents the view of the majority?.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We're on opposite sides of the table here mate but I agree with a lot of what you say there, including the unattainable democratic Utopia.

But I'll play devil's advocate and throw your own argument back at you. In the unlikely event (in my personal view) that Parliament actually manage to agree on a strategy for Brexit, how does anybody know that it represents the view of the majority?.

Chances are it won't, and even if it did, it's unlikely that the lives of those who voted for it will change in the way they hoped it would.

 

[peteblue]

It's Xmas mate... that was the first no L.

Hahaha........ove it........

 

[Joey66]

But you were trying to call Farron some sort of block to democracy by stating that he's going against the wishes of his constituents - for which there is no evidence. And there is a good deal to support the idea that he's backed up by them.

he is the scum of the earth 8 mps cumbria his area votes 5-1 OUT and he cries for a 2nd referendum he is supposed to be a democrat - like you and a few on here like he cannot accept the result !
How can you defend that I heard on LBC that fact but they stated he
by the way the other day you were banging on about how great the EU was I told you to watch the Daily Politics as the EURO was in trouble after a load of nonsense of post by you.
You then watched the DP and stated oh yes the Euro is in trouble as Italy have a vote on it and are behind in the polls as they want the lira back and the party who may get in want a brexit!

Political groups use circumstances for their own ends shocker......even now you are happy to denigrate the people of the UK but will say nothing against the people who have actually caused all this...Merkel and Juncker.......

The thing is Pete, when people were warned that a vote for Brexit would boost these kind of far-right groups, it was dismissed as 'project fear', and has subsequently been used as ammunition to say how many apparent lies the remain campaign told. So which is it?

Bruce the debate was mainly about in or out with both side peddling their propaganda- the out vote was not won on fear just the first ever vote on being governed by a brussels polictical union exposed by Ukip - that was the factor it was the Labour heartlands that mostly fell to the Ukip out vote!

 

[peteblue]

I perhaps didn't make myself very clear. I'm not suggesting that we should only act in accordance with the majority as that's impossible to do. I'm suggesting that this basic fact should prevent people suggesting that Brexit in any form whatsoever should be undertaken simply because it is the 'will of the majority' and therefore some kind of democracy. If anything, it underlines the fallacy of a referendum and the silliness of suggesting they be used to drive policy making.

Now, of course, you could follow this on and suggest that the only true democracy is a market in which we each get to choose what we want, without at the same dictating the choice of others, and I'd be very receptive to that, but it'd be veering from the point a touch

Bruce, why are you so frightened of leaving the EU......

 

[Joey66]

Time for a second look at the envisaged 'end of Europe'.

https://www.ft.com/content/9cfdad52-ada7-11e6-9cb3-bb8207902122

View attachment 31379

again peddling this stuff europe will not end - the political union might trade free for all will continue only Belarus as a non member is not allowed to use the single market!
Watch the DP today and learn something!

 

[Joey66]

Predictions of course open to being proven wrong but quite simply:

It's not impossible that more people in the UK wanted to remain at the time of the ref but those who were unimpassioned remainers didn't bother voting - I'm not suggesting that this invalidates the referendum, those people gave up their say knowingly.

With regards to France and Italy, I believe it could go one of two ways. Less likely, Brexit is an absolute "success" and is portrayed so by the media (even less likely) - it may boost the desire to exit among the French and Italians.

More likely IMO, Brexit becomes quite the mess, the UK suffers and the media jump on it and lots of French and Italian folk realise that it's not worth it.

*I can't guarantee that either of these scenarios will play out.

Especially the prediction the Remain camp would win in June

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

he is the scum of the earth 8 mps cumbria his area votes 5-1 OUT and he cries for a 2nd referendum he is supposed to be a democrat - like you and a few on here like he cannot accept the result !
How can you defend that I heard on LBC that fact but they stated he
by the way the other day you were banging on about how great the EU was I told you to watch the Daily Politics as the EURO was in trouble after a load of nonsense of post by you.
You then watched the DP and stated oh yes the Euro is in trouble as Italy have a vote on it and are behind in the polls as they want the lira back and the party who may get in want a brexit!

1. Of all our politicians, he is not the 'scum of the Earth'.
2. As established to a good degree of reasonable certainty, his constituency voted to remain - you certainly have no evidence to the contrary.
3. We accept the result, I've typed that on here multiple times, you're ignorant to it. I would vote for Brexit so long as it wasn't a total mess if I was a sitting MP.
4. This is what I wrote about the Euro, fibbing again, I criticised it and stated that I don't believe in the project.

@Joey66 I watched DP mate.

I largely agree with the musings of Andrew Neil and the UKIP dude (not words I often find myself composing) because the Euro is flawed, possibly fatally.

Unfortunately I had no opinion to vault when they brought it in or when they were floating the idea of us joining it, because I was six.

I am however, anti-Euro.

How it ties in with the Brexit debate directly, I'm not sure, although there are lots of indirect connotations.

This may come as news to you (but it shouldn't) - the Euro and the EU are not the same thing, as illustrated by the way we are in the EU and not the Euro currency.

 

[Joey66]

1. Of all our politicians, he is not the 'scum of the Earth'.
2. As established to a good degree of reasonable certainty, his constituency voted to remain.
3. We accept the result, I've typed that on here multiple times, you're ignorant to it.
4. This is what I wrote about the Euro, fibbing again, I criticised it and stated that I don't believe in the project.

This may come as news to you (but it shouldn't) - the Euro and the EU are not the same thing, as illustrated by the way we are in the EU and not the Euro currency.

Please do not patronise me - I know what the Euro is look back it was I who told you Italy are on the brink of losing it as they want their Lira back - where would we be if we had listened to the same experts who stated to join in on its conception ie Ken Clarkes forecast of doom, and gloom if we had joined it we would be in the muck cart yes the very same experts that told us to remain!
Any politician who goes against the vote of the democratic people is scum in my eyes blairs on his way back by the way reportedly to lead the anti brexit campaign - a great boost for us to leave ASAP!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce, why are you so frightened of leaving the EU......

Because I believe the four freedoms are a truly wonderful thing, whether economically or socially, and have delivered tremendous things for us as individuals, us as a country and for Europe as a continent. In a best case scenario, leaving is a retrograde step. In the worst case scenario it sees far right groups take over much of Europe and those freedoms are demolished in a wave of hate and intolerance. That would be an utter tragedy.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Please do not patronise me i know what the Euro is look back it was I who told you italy are on the brink of losing it as they want their Lira back - where would we be if we had listened to the same experts who stated to join in on its conception ie ken clark forecast of doom and gloom if we had joined it we would be in the muck cart yes experts that told us to remain!
Any politician who goes against the vote of the democratic people is scum in my eyes blairs on his way back by the way reportedly to lead the anti brexit campaign - a great boost for us to leave ASP!

Are you going to respond to any of the points I just raised or waffle?

If you find it patronising to be faced with facts then that's an issue for you, I suppose you value your prejudicial conceptions as more meaningful. Sad.

You moan about people if they think they've insulted you then you label people with a different point of view to yours as 'scum'.

 

[Joey66]

Are you going to respond to any of the points I just raised or waffle?

If you find it patronising to be faced with facts then that's an issue for you, I suppose you value your prejudicial conceptions as more meaningful. Sad.

You moan about people if they think they've insulted you then you label people with a different point of view to yours as 'scum'.

not people like you, politicians who represent as being democrats or the Owen smiths of this world wanting a 2nd referendum even you I think have accepted brexit will happen ??????????????????????