Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

So it's our fault the far-right are doing so well, and not those who actually vote for them. I'm glad that's cleared up.

There is always a reaction to positions taken. When something goes too far in one direction there is inevitably a reaction. I believe a lot of what is going on is a reaction to what the EU have set out to do and so yes it is our fault that we have allowed this to happen without reining them in. Of course as we have very little influence in the Eu anyway then most of the fault is down to those who do, Germany and France........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

There is always a reaction to positions taken. When something goes too far in one direction there is inevitably a reaction. I believe a lot of what is going on is a reaction to what the EU have set out to do and so yes it is our fault that we have allowed this to happen without reining them in. Of course as we have very little influence in the Eu anyway then most of the fault is down to those who do, Germany and France........

The thing is Pete, when people were warned that a vote for Brexit would boost these kind of far-right groups, it was dismissed as 'project fear', and has subsequently been used as ammunition to say how many apparent lies the remain campaign told. So which is it?

 

[peteblue]

The thing is Pete, when people were warned that a vote for Brexit would boost these kind of far-right groups, it was dismissed as 'project fear', and has subsequently been used as ammunition to say how many apparent lies the remain campaign told. So which is it?

We were voting for how we want the UK to be, we were not voting for the political climate, left or right, within Europe. Brexit is not the reason for these groups to emerge, Brexit was the realisation that the EU had gone wrong and was no longer right for the UK. The same issue however is what I believe is causing the European shifts. It's too easy to blame the people when it is the Politicians such as Merkel and Juncker who have changed the political environment......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We were voting for how we want the UK to be, we were not voting for the political climate, left or right, within Europe. Brexit is not the reason for these groups to emerge, Brexit was the realisation that the EU had gone wrong and was no longer right for the UK. The same issue however is what I believe is causing the European shifts. It's too easy to blame the people when it is the Politicians such as Merkel and Juncker who have changed the political environment......

Each and every one of those groups both support Brexit, and have used it to further their own ends. This was mentioned during the campaign itself but was dismissed. I'm not sure how the two can be disconnected as it was made explicit by Cameron and other 'whaddaweneedexpertsfor'. Indeed, politicians like Farage and Johnson helped to whip up the kind of angst we're seeing throughout Europe with their racist posters about the continent being flooded and unadulterated lies about Turkey joining the EU.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Ah I see why you'd think that... I'll go in to more detail if you can be arsed reading this late!

No, not quite. If I thought the issue was remotely reasonable, then vetoing it would be a tittish move, to put it bluntly. That would be akin to dictatorship. That's why we have manifestos and mandates at the end of the day, because you put your ideas to the public, then you work to implement them.

It's just on this issue; it is so important that it supercedes popular opinion and should be judged on more logical grounds by those responsible for acting in the best interests of the country, particularly the chance of massive economic self-harm that could linger for decades.

Let's face it, if we left all decisions to the populace, then you'd have some totally unrealistic policies come into law that would be disastrous for the country, because populist actions like massive tax cuts and so on would be voted on because nobody really gives a toss about thinking about the long term consequences. It's up to parliament to understand we can't just throw free money at everyone and everything, because it isn't a bottomless well.

Speaking of manifestos, they are never implemented in full, because ideas become unworkable. For example, look at the British Bill of Rights from the Tory 2015 manifesto. Like Brexit, you could argue the populace voted for that to be implemented no matter what, but in reality the landscape shifts and whoever governs needs to weigh whether it's actually a good idea after all.

So again, no, I'm not saying everything should be overruled by the executive, but I am saying they should reserve the right to do so if it makes sense to do it, Pand the consequences of not vetoing it are so severe as to risk serious national harm.

Parliament voted heavily in favour of the referendum though. To then go against the outcome would be tittish as you say.

I think the mistake MPs made was that they are so out of touch with the electorate they underestimated the depth of ill feeling towards EU membership.

 

[Kurt.]

935 pages in and the same people are still arguing the same points and still agreeing on none haha... THIS IS WHY I OVE GOT !!!!!

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Slitting hairs 5 out of 6 over out in his district some leader wanting a 2nd referendum still a disgraceful leader IMO!
8 mps and here's what their great leader says-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-prepared-to-vote-against-triggering-article/
Thats democrocy the LIB DEM way!
No wonder they got wiped out at the GE!

But you were trying to call Farron some sort of block to democracy by stating that he's going against the wishes of his constituents - for which there is no evidence. And there is a good deal to support the idea that he's backed up by them.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Time for a second look at the envisaged 'end of Europe'.

https://www.ft.com/content/9cfdad52-ada7-11e6-9cb3-bb8207902122

 

[orly]

935 pages in and the same people are still arguing the same points and still agreeing on none haha... THIS IS WHY I OVE GOT !!!!!

I agree with you there mate

 

[peteblue]

Time for a second look at the envisaged 'end of Europe'.

https://www.ft.com/content/9cfdad52-ada7-11e6-9cb3-bb8207902122

View attachment 31379

So according to that chart, around June/July time more people in the UK wanted to stay in the EU. Also both Italy and France had fewer people wanting to stay than in the UK, and we know how that ended up, so what is your interpretation....

 

[peteblue]

935 pages in and the same people are still arguing the same points and still agreeing on none haha... THIS IS WHY I OVE GOT !!!!!

I OVE GOT as well........

 

[peteblue]

Each and every one of those groups both support Brexit, and have used it to further their own ends. This was mentioned during the campaign itself but was dismissed. I'm not sure how the two can be disconnected as it was made explicit by Cameron and other 'whaddaweneedexpertsfor'. Indeed, politicians like Farage and Johnson helped to whip up the kind of angst we're seeing throughout Europe with their racist posters about the continent being flooded and unadulterated lies about Turkey joining the EU.

Political groups use circumstances for their own ends shocker......even now you are happy to denigrate the people of the UK but will say nothing against the people who have actually caused all this...Merkel and Juncker.......

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

So according to that chart, around June/July time more people in the UK wanted to stay in the EU. Also both Italy and France had fewer people wanting to stay than in the UK, and we know how that ended up, so what is your interpretation....

Predictions of course open to being proven wrong but quite simply:

It's not impossible that more people in the UK wanted to remain at the time of the ref but those who were unimpassioned remainers didn't bother voting - I'm not suggesting that this invalidates the referendum, those people gave up their say knowingly.

With regards to France and Italy, I believe it could go one of two ways. Less likely, Brexit is an absolute "success" and is portrayed so by the media (even less likely) - it may boost the desire to exit among the French and Italians.

More likely IMO, Brexit becomes quite the mess, the UK suffers and the media jump on it and lots of French and Italian folk realise that it's not worth it.

*I can't guarantee that either of these scenarios will play out.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

We were voting for how we want the UK to be, we were not voting for the political climate, left or right, within Europe. Brexit is not the reason for these groups to emerge, Brexit was the realisation that the EU had gone wrong and was no longer right for the UK. The same issue however is what I believe is causing the European shifts. It's too easy to blame the people when it is the Politicians such as Merkel and Juncker who have changed the political environment......

Think the reason for the emergence of these groups is that people all over Europe have just had enough of the status quo.

 

[Tubey]

Parliament voted heavily in favour of the referendum though. To then go against the outcome would be tittish as you say.

I think the mistake MPs made was that they are so out of touch with the electorate they underestimated the depth of ill feeling towards EU membership.

Yes they did. A non-binary referendum.

They should therefore do what is on the tin and be advised by it, but not controlled by it, especially if doing so would harm the country.

They're not going against anything - they would be taking the advice on board, but acting in accordance to the responsibilities given to them to not ruin the country they are responsible for.

If anyone could make one single economic argument for leaving that was based on evidence and not pie-in-the-sky nonsense, then it would be a different story.