Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
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LouReedwalkonthewildside said:
Think the reason for the emergence of these groups is that people all over Europe have just had enough of the status quo.
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Yeah this is pretty much it.

It's going for the nuclear option out of irritation with what they are used to. It's the same with Trump.

I just personally think that is a very, very stupid thing to do. There are better ways to express distaste for what's happening than to just vote for stupid things out of desperation.

Protest, mass strikes if need be. Organise from the grass roots and put pressure on people for change. But it has to be change that makes sense and isn't simply a self-destruct button for everyone.
 
Tubey said:
Yeah this is pretty much it.

It's going for the nuclear option out of irritation with what they are used to. It's the same with Trump.

I just personally think that is a very, very stupid thing to do. There are better ways to express distaste for what's happening than to just vote for stupid things out of desperation.

Protest, mass strikes if need be. Organise from the grass roots and put pressure on people for change. But it has to be change that makes sense and isn't simply a self-destruct button for everyone.
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I would really hope that when people voted for certain political groups they wouldn't normally vote for that they would have put a lot of thought into their actions because once done there is no immediately going back, but I have been known to be a tad naive like.
 
Kurt said:
It's Xmas mate... that was the first no L.
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Tubey said:
Yes they did. A non-binary referendum.

They should therefore do what is on the tin and be advised by it, but not controlled by it, especially if doing so would harm the country.

They're not going against anything - they would be taking the advice on board, but acting in accordance to the responsibilities given to them to not ruin the country they are responsible for.

If anyone could make one single economic argument for leaving that was based on evidence and not pie-in-the-sky nonsense, then it would be a different story.
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I know the referendum was advisory mate. But what idiot would put such an important issue to the electorate and then choose to ignore it? That's just asking for trouble. You yourself in a previous post said that would be tittish. Plus the Prime Minister, both before the referendum and immediately afterwards before he resigned, publicly stated that the government would stand by the outcome.

From this latest post I'm not sure what your stance is on this. Are you now advocating that we don't invoke article 50?. Or are you saying that we should issue it, but only on terms that fit in with your viewpoint and probably go against the wishes of the majority of those that vote to leave?
 
Barnfred 55 said:
I know the referendum was advisory mate. But what idiot would put such an important issue to the electorate and then choose to ignore it? That's just asking for trouble. You yourself in a previous post said that would be tittish. Plus the Prime Minister, both before the referendum and immediately afterwards before he resigned, publicly stated that the government would stand by the outcome.

From this latest post I'm not sure what your stance is on this. Are you now advocating that we don't invoke article 50?. Or are you saying that we should issue it, but only on terms that fit in with your viewpoint and probably go against the wishes of the majority of those that vote to leave?
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Isn't that the point? There is no homogeneous brexit that leavers want so how can anyone abide by something that doesn't exist?

Some want a hard brexit, some want Norway like brexit, some want something else again. Indeed I'm sure there will be some that would say no thanks based upon whatever we end up with.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
I know the referendum was advisory mate. But what idiot would put such an important issue to the electorate and then choose to ignore it? That's just asking for trouble. You yourself in a previous post said that would be tittish. Plus the Prime Minister, both before the referendum and immediately afterwards before he resigned, publicly stated that the government would stand by the outcome.

From this latest post I'm not sure what your stance is on this. Are you now advocating that we don't invoke article 50?. Or are you saying that we should issue it, but only on terms that fit in with your viewpoint and probably go against the wishes of the majority of those that vote to leave?
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My standpoint is quite simple. We should activate Article 50, begin negotiations - but reserve the right to refuse the terms and remain in the EU if the terms that the EU set would be disastrous for our country to agree to.

I said it would be tittish if the executive vetoed anything and everything. But Brexit is an entirely different beast - it is so important that it would be negligent of parliament to take the advice of the electorate as gospel, given that evidence could easily point to it being the dumbest act of national self-harm we could possibly do if we went through with it.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Isn't that the point? There is no homogeneous brexit that leavers want so how can anyone abide by something that doesn't exist?

Some want a hard brexit, some want Norway like brexit, some want something else again. Indeed I'm sure there will be some that would say no thanks based upon whatever we end up with.
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You could apply that theory to absolutely everything though Bruce. If you take that stance with everything, no decisions would be made on any subject, ever. Nothing would get done.
 
Tubey said:
My standpoint is quite simple. We should activate Article 50, begin negotiations - but reserve the right to refuse the terms and remain in the EU if the terms that the EU set would be disastrous for our country to agree to.

I said it would be tittish if the executive vetoed anything and everything. But Brexit is an entirely different beast - it is so important that it would be negligent of parliament to take the advice of the electorate as gospel, given that evidence could easily point to it being the dumbest act of national self-harm we could possibly do if we went through with it.
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On your first point, once article 50 is invoked, is it not irrevocable?. Genuine question as I don't know the answer.

On the second point, I go back to my original argument; why put it to the electorate in the first place?. I know why Cameron did. He backed himself into a corner winning electoral votes and then not getting what he expected from the EU. But Parliament voted overwhelmingly for a referendum too.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
On your first point, once article 50 is invoked, is it not irrevocable?. Genuine question as I don't know the answer.

On the second point, I go back to my original argument; why put it to the electorate in the first place?. I know why Cameron did. He backed himself into a corner winning electoral votes and then not getting what he expected from the EU. But Parliament voted overwhelmingly for a referendum too.
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Article 50 can certainly be reversed. All it is is an intention to leave; it can be revoked at any point in the two years, and then activated again if need be. It doesn't lock us in to leaving. That's why activating Article 50 and agreeing to the terms set to leave are two different things. Both should be ran through parliament, but Article 50 should fly through because we can't negotiate leaving without it, so Article 50 fulfils most of the wish of the referendum - it signals the intent to leave.

As to why put it to the electorate? Because it was a political game from Cameron as you said. I think the result of Leave should be respected, and if at all possible acted upon, but it shouldn't be done if it simply does not make logical sense to do so. Loads of people would vote in a referendum to abolish tax if the choice was given to them; it doesn't mean that would mean we should actually do it.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
You could apply that theory to absolutely everything though Bruce. If you take that stance with everything, no decisions would be made on any subject, ever. Nothing would get done.
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I'm not suggesting nothing will be done, merely that believing we are somehow acting in accordance to the wishes of every leave voter is impossible. This is not the will of the majority as a) we don't know what that is, and b) it is very unlikely to be a homogeneous whole.
 
Tubey said:
Article 50 can certainly be reversed. All it is is an intention to leave; it can be revoked at any point in the two years, and then activated again if need be. It doesn't lock us in to leaving. That's why activating Article 50 and agreeing to the terms set to leave are two different things. Both should be ran through parliament, but Article 50 should fly through because we can't negotiate leaving without it, so Article 50 fulfils most of the wish of the referendum - it signals the intent to leave.

As to why put it to the electorate? Because it was a political game from Cameron as you said. I think the result of Leave should be respected, and if at all possible acted upon, but it shouldn't be done if it simply does not make logical sense to do so. Loads of people would vote in a referendum to abolish tax if the choice was given to them; it doesn't mean that would mean we should actually do it.
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Then quite simply you open a can of worms, and a can of worms in this case will undoubtedly result in an early GE. My personal view is that will be disastrous, as we will end up with a very dominant right wing power base that will have the majority to push through any Brexit scenario they want.
 
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