Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
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How can all the people claiming it is a disgrace that the MPs get to decide if we remain and we're meant to be a democracy, etc. be taken seriously when the majority of them are in support of the monarchy?
 
Bruce Wayne said:
There's got to be a sense that what you're voting for is going to change that for the better though? Not all change is for the better, and there seems a very real risk at the moment that things will get a lot worse for those people.

Lets use an example. Say for whatever reason, Nissan decided that their plant in Sunderland wasn't working and they closed it down (I know there are various things that can stop that happening, but please ignore those for now), what happens then? What can the state offer to the people who were previously employed there to find work again?

Because it seems to me that we're already discounting those folks moving elsewhere (the Midlands say) where their car skills might find other work, because of the well established challenges involved in movement of people in any kind of number. Could they retrain and look for other work? The government already have a fund to help with that sort of thing, but a recent FoI request revealed it had a couple of million in it, so isn't likely to spread very far (and I've spoken to the chair of the education select committee on this and they had no clue about adult education, especially to help people re-train in the event of a lost job), and even if one re-trains, if we assume those 30,000 people or so are staying in Sunderland, it will take a while to attract the businesses to the area to employ those re-trained folk.

So it goes full circle again in that the best option for people really is to be mobile and move to where their skills might find employment, but folks don't like influxes of new people as the state apparatus is not flexible enough to give towns additional funding to help cope with it.

I'm not sure how leaving the EU will change any of that, as there hasn't been a word uttered by any of the parties on either side (remain or leave) that has addressed any of this. It seems if we're directing anger somewhere it should be less at the EU and more at our hopeless politicians. We already have all of the 'sovereignty' we need to deal with this, but we've bungled it.
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Two points. The EU is seen as part of the establishment and the voting to change for the better actually translates as 'voting for something different to the current status quo' because enough were disillusioned.

I can see a different problem in the future, a return to the past, and city states, castled dominions where the 'rich' (sic) within the walls through out the scraps to the poor who gather due to no alternative. You can take that metaphorically with work, education etc or literally as the favelas of Brazil show.

'We' the proles aren't supposed to understand the complexity of legalese, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter, as the overwhelming majority, we the people can ignore it and create a new system that is fairer, we are just too lazy and too caught up in ourselves to do it.
 
magicjuan said:
Two points. The EU is seen as part of the establishment and the voting to change for the better actually translates as 'voting for something different to the current status quo' because enough were disillusioned.

I can see a different problem in the future, a return to the past, and city states, castled dominions where the 'rich' (sic) within the walls through out the scraps to the poor who gather due to no alternative. You can take that metaphorically with work, education etc or literally as the favelas of Brazil show.

'We' the proles aren't supposed to understand the complexity of legalese, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter, as the overwhelming majority, we the people can ignore it and create a new system that is fairer, we are just too lazy and too caught up in ourselves to do it.
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With respect though, that's all very philosophical. The example I gave was a practical one, and given that many of the tools to help people already exist, I'm not sure what leaving the EU will do that better governance wouldn't do just as well.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
What do you think might happen if you (or other locals) actually went up and said "hello, how you doing? My name's Big Nev" to them? Because I've had the boot on the other foot, and spent a wee while with the in-laws in Czech. Now I'm inclined to think the English skills of the average migrant here are infinitely better than my Czech skills, but I know personally that it's exhausting trying to think and converse in your non-native tongue, especially to begin with, and so yes it can be a blessed relief to speak your natural language for a bit. Gives your brain a rest, you know? It isn't because you're not wanting to 'integrate' or you're dissing the local culture, and if someone spoke to you in the native tongue then you would of course switch immediately back.

Try speaking to migrants a bit, get to know them, because that integration we all so seek generally only happens when we stop treating them like aliens and more like people that are just like us.
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Just to note, I have no problem with them, and they can speak in Polish if they wish. My wife is not English so i would be a hypocrite to turn on them! All I'm saying is that it probably gave an excuse to some people to vote leave. Some days I would swear I was in Poland so even I think free movement is a bit much, in my view there should have been quotas for them and us moving to other EU states, multi cultural is good but not when it's on a vast scale.
 
The binman chronicles said:
Just to note, I have no problem with them, and they can speak in Polish if they wish. My wife is not English so i would be a hypocrite to turn on them! All I'm saying is that it probably gave an excuse to some people to vote leave. Some days I would swear I was in Poland so even I think free movement is a bit much, in my view there should have been quotas for them and us moving to other EU states, multi cultural is good but not when it's on a vast scale.
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And my comment wasn't directed at you per se, but equally though, what would be the worst to happen if you said hello? I posted a much longer comment on this yesterday, but the tldr version is that when national culture has been studied it's emerged that there is understandably a large spread within any nationality, which is obvious when you think of our own country and the variety of views we've had on this thread alone.

But lets say, for the sake of argument, that Britain is on average more liberal than Poland. If we assume that there is a spread within Poland and when given a choice, people choose to be with those that are most like themselves, then it surely stands to reason that it's the more liberal Poles that choose to move to Britain as they see it as a good place for them and their values. I can't imagine anyone would move somewhere that clashes with their core beliefs. So those Poles at the school gates are quite probably just like you and I :)
 
Bruce Wayne said:
With respect though, that's all very philosophical. The example I gave was a practical one, and given that many of the tools to help people already exist, I'm not sure what leaving the EU will do that better governance wouldn't do just as well.
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But isn't relevant achievability the determining factor? People have been trying to effect better governance for a long time, this was a one off opportunity.
 
This morning's press reaction to yesterday's High Court decision says an awful lot in my opinion.

It confirms for me that in fact the referendum result on June 23rd was not actually the voice and will of the majority of the people but rather it was the voice and will of the majority of the press.

Yes, I know many people wanted to leave the EU, but the question of why, what motivation was there and who provided that motivation is clear to see today.

Despite the ruling with huge clarity being nothing at all to do with Brexit per se, and most if not all politicians saying Brexit will go ahead, the dialogue from the right wing media chooses to ignore that and continues to peddle lies and untruths, this time not about Europe but about our very democracy and the impartialilty of the Courts.

In manifesting such lies and vitriol as they have today, they weaken further democracy and faith in the institutions that have served this country of ours so well for hundreds of years.

The media are not friends of democracy nor do they uphold the rule of law, nor our wonderful constitution built on legislation and case law. They, as ever, serve only their own very narrow interests and in doing so continue to alienate and remove large parts of the population from the truth, and their ability to make decisions and judgement on the truth rather than lies and propoganda.
 
magicjuan said:
That isn't so. I can't recall any stance promoted as being anti establishment during any part of campaign, certainly not the UK establishment, that was promoted by UKIP et al as reclaiming control.

The public in huge swathes chose an anti establishment stance for many reasons, disillusionment, conscience, anti austerity, generally being sick and tired of getting nowhere.

Bear in mind that those on both sides during the run up belonged to the establishment too and as with all politicians they save their own skin above all else and won't do anything to jeopardise it.
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But mixed that really isn't it? On one your saying it wasn't promoted as anti-establishment but you're still saying it was an anti-establishment vote.

My over riding point was that it wasn't a vote for anti-establishment even if people may have felt that. I agree with you it was the establishment on both sides- It was a vote for a change in the status quo yes, but not in the way that people may have hoped for.
 
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