Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

True, nearly half one way or the other will be left upset. I would hope if there was a 2nd referendum (& that's a big IF as like others have said people did vote to exit and that should be actioned if the terms are sensible & I think MP's understand that) it would have to be cast iron with no ambiguity, the final step before signing the papers. Did anyone think that the Tory's would try to block the exit deal being discussed in the commons beforehand? I didn't think that was possible.

What's stopping the small band of tories doing a deal that suits their own self interests, this is why we have votes for laws to be passed to prevent that kind of thing.

A lot of people voted to leave on the basis of immigration, but if we keep the common market and free movement then what about those people who decided to exit, has there wishes been actioned?

If we brexit so be it but I would at least like it to go through and be approved by half of MP's first.

Personally I couldn't give a flying toss that those who voted with immigration as their prime motive might be disappointed that the end deal might not address their want

The vote was about leaving the EU, not about leaving the EU at the expense of torching our economy. The politicians need to ensure that Brexit is delivered in a way that protects the best interests of the country and not seek to placate a section of the electorate.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I agree. Tough times ahead and it's hard to see the right path.

Saw Nadine Dorris on Peston saying that Labour will loose northern votes if they don't address people's 'legitimate' concerns on immigration. In areas like Sunderland with only a 3% immigrant population, surly labour should be educating not pandering. But hard to see how - particularly in the aftermath of this referendum.

Sunderland was little Englander idiocy, small minded bigots who voted citing an issue that simply wasn't an issue in their locale

Whilst ignoring that their prime industry stood to be shattered by Brexit.

I hope they go down btw morons

 

[SNova]

I agree. Tough times ahead and it's hard to see the right path.

Saw Nadine Dorris on Peston saying that Labour will loose northern votes if they don't address people's 'legitimate' concerns on immigration. In areas like Sunderland with only a 3% immigrant population, surly labour should be educating not pandering. But hard to see how - particularly in the aftermath of this referendum.

>Let me educate you on why you're wrong.

Isn't this why the establishment is losing votes?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

>Let me educate you on why you're wrong.

Isn't this why the establishment is losing votes?

> let me educate you on why you are completely wrong

The establishment gained the votes of the working class due to a combination of the following factors;

The mistaken idea they were sticking it to the Tories and the 'haves'.

Racists and xenophobes in a provincial crap hole (see Hull for details)

They fell for the spin of the right wing rags and the Leave and Farage knackers

They're thick (see above for details)

 

[Anders_Limpar]

>Let me educate you on why you're wrong.

Isn't this why the establishment is losing votes?

So you are saying that in Sunderland an area where they have a population born outside of uk at less than 3%, it's legitimate for them to have concerns about immigration?

So basically they are wrong. They're pissed of with their lot in life and blaiming that on immigration and any other rubbish spouted by either UKIP or the leave campaign. Labours job should be working out the real reasons for the dissatisfaction and trying to address them with policy, and then selling that policy to them.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Personally I couldn't give a flying toss that those who voted with immigration as their prime motive might be disappointed that the end deal might not address their want

The vote was about leaving the EU, not about leaving the EU at the expense of torching our economy. The politicians need to ensure that Brexit is delivered in a way that protects the best interests of the country and not seek to placate a section of the electorate.

Most people who voted remain understood that there was going to be a hefty financial impact to this at least in the short to medium term. A lot of us don't particularly like mass immigration but we choice to stay because the damage to the economy is worse than everyone at the shops or school speaking in Polish.* (Which is a lot where I live)

A good majority of people who voted exit just saw Farage's immigration posters of the impending invasion of the Turks and Boris's NHS slander slogan bus. If they were told from the start well to save the economy we might have to keep immigration exactly how it is, then surely that could be grounds for a rerun (or at least a change of vote if we had a second referendum) seeing that's not what they voted for due to the silly question do you want to leave the EU? Most people took that for granted to mean no free movement. But now we are (alright could be) effectively staying in by having free movement, we still pay in for access to the common market but now we have no say how it's run. So all the years it takes us to get to that point, all the money wasted on the referendum itself, negotiation costs with lawyers etc. Just to free ourselves from the court of human rights...yayyyy!!!

Personally if we keep the common market and free movement we shouldn't even bother leaving and maybe that should be the question to put to everyone:

Do you accept the deal to leave the court of human rights? yes/no
Did you want to leave the EU totally including free movement etc. You know the thing that you thought you were voting for in the first place? yes/no

(*other EU languages are available)

 

[Anders_Limpar]

>Let me educate you on why you're wrong.

Isn't this why the establishment is losing votes?

Another remarkable aspect of the whole leave campaign was that they managed to somehow sell the idea to the working class, that brexit was some kind of anti-establishment vote.

A vote for brexit was a vote for the right of the Tory party and a vote for the Murdoch press - doesn't get any more establishment than that... So if anything the establishment is gaining votes...

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Most people who voted remain understood that there was going to be a hefty financial impact to this at least in the short to medium term. A lot of us don't particularly like mass immigration but we choice to stay because the damage to the economy is worse than everyone at the shops or school speaking in Polish.* (Which is a lot where I live)

A good majority of people who voted exit just saw Farage's immigration posters of the impending invasion of the Turks and Boris's NHS slander slogan bus. If they were told from the start well to save the economy we might have to keep immigration exactly how it is, then surely that could be grounds for a rerun (or at least a change of vote if we had a second referendum) seeing that's not what they voted for due to the silly question do you want to leave the EU? Most people took that for granted to mean no free movement. But now we are (alright could be) effectively staying in by having free movement, we still pay in for access to the common market but now we have no say how it's run. So all the years it takes us to get to that point, all the money wasted on the referendum itself, negotiation costs with lawyers etc. Just to free ourselves from the court of human rights...yayyyy!!!

Personally if we keep the common market and free movement we shouldn't even bother leaving and maybe that should be the question to put to everyone:

Do you accept the deal to leave the court of human rights? yes/no
Did you want to leave the EU totally including free movement etc. You know the thing that you thought you were voting for in the first place? yes/no

(*other EU languages are available)

I don't think a second referendum is what should happen tbh mate.

I've said from the off that a GE should be fought on the terms of Brexit, and that might end up being how it pans out.
If we end up paying a tariff and still maintain free movement due to the economic need of the single market, then bollocks to those who voted with immigration as their prime motive and then largely hid behind 'it's the beaurocracy and lack of control I object to'

As we'll have shed that and kept single market access thus protecting our economic future

 

[Anders_Limpar]

I don't think a second referendum is what should happen tbh mate.

I've said from the off that a GE should be fought on the terms of Brexit, and that might end up being how it pans out.
If we end up paying a tariff and still maintain free movement due to the economic need of the single market, then bollocks to those who voted with immigration as their prime motive and then largely hid behind 'it's the beaurocracy and lack of control I object to'

As we'll have shed that and kept single market access thus protecting our economic future

I think a GE next year is looking increasingly likely.

The idea terrifies me.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

17,410,742 pissed off voters nationwide. The biggest number of votes with the highest turnout for quite some time, possibly ever.

And 16 million odd voters are already peed off nationwide, with quite probably a few million more migrants that weren't eligible to vote. Their voices count too, yet they've been ridden roughshod over on account of them being in an incredibly slim minority in an opinion poll.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Think that's becoming abundantly clear. What's also clear that if they did veto article 50, it could become disasterous in helping UKIP become a viable option for a lot of people.

My hope is today slows the process down and we get a second referendum in 18 months. At which point people will have started to feel the economic downturn in their pocket. Then perhaps leaving may not seem quite so clever.

Which in itself is illustrative of the madness we're living in. They're a party with a seemingly rotating leadership, whose politicians fight and badmouth others on a regular basis, and who as far as I can tell have no policies on anything except Europe. That this has been whipped up to such an extent that people would be willing to vote such a party into parliament just to kick Europe is madness, especially when a major argument for leaving Europe is to regain control of our own affairs, which begs the question why you would want to hand that additional power to a complete bunch of cretins!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Most people who voted remain understood that there was going to be a hefty financial impact to this at least in the short to medium term. A lot of us don't particularly like mass immigration but we choice to stay because the damage to the economy is worse than everyone at the shops or school speaking in Polish.* (Which is a lot where I live)

What do you think might happen if you (or other locals) actually went up and said "hello, how you doing? My name's Big Nev" to them? Because I've had the boot on the other foot, and spent a wee while with the in-laws in Czech. Now I'm inclined to think the English skills of the average migrant here are infinitely better than my Czech skills, but I know personally that it's exhausting trying to think and converse in your non-native tongue, especially to begin with, and so yes it can be a blessed relief to speak your natural language for a bit. Gives your brain a rest, you know? It isn't because you're not wanting to 'integrate' or you're dissing the local culture, and if someone spoke to you in the native tongue then you would of course switch immediately back.

Try speaking to migrants a bit, get to know them, because that integration we all so seek generally only happens when we stop treating them like aliens and more like people that are just like us.

 

[magicjuan]

Another remarkable aspect of the whole leave campaign was that they managed to somehow sell the idea to the working class, that brexit was some kind of anti-establishment vote.

A vote for brexit was a vote for the right of the Tory party and a vote for the Murdoch press - doesn't get any more establishment than that... So if anything the establishment is gaining votes...

That isn't so. I can't recall any stance promoted as being anti establishment during any part of campaign, certainly not the UK establishment, that was promoted by UKIP et al as reclaiming control.

The public in huge swathes chose an anti establishment stance for many reasons, disillusionment, conscience, anti austerity, generally being sick and tired of getting nowhere.

Bear in mind that those on both sides during the run up belonged to the establishment too and as with all politicians they save their own skin above all else and won't do anything to jeopardise it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That isn't so. I can't recall any stance promoted as being anti establishment during any part of campaign, certainly not the UK establishment, that was promoted by UKIP et al as reclaiming control.

The public in huge swathes chose an anti establishment stance for many reasons, disillusionment, conscience, anti austerity, generally being sick and tired of getting nowhere.

Bear in mind that those on both sides during the run up belonged to the establishment too and as with all politicians they save their own skin above all else and won't do anything to jeopardise it.

There's got to be a sense that what you're voting for is going to change that for the better though? Not all change is for the better, and there seems a very real risk at the moment that things will get a lot worse for those people.

Lets use an example. Say for whatever reason, Nissan decided that their plant in Sunderland wasn't working and they closed it down (I know there are various things that can stop that happening, but please ignore those for now), what happens then? What can the state offer to the people who were previously employed there to find work again?

Because it seems to me that we're already discounting those folks moving elsewhere (the Midlands say) where their car skills might find other work, because of the well established challenges involved in movement of people in any kind of number. Could they retrain and look for other work? The government already have a fund to help with that sort of thing, but a recent FoI request revealed it had a couple of million in it, so isn't likely to spread very far (and I've spoken to the chair of the education select committee on this and they had no clue about adult education, especially to help people re-train in the event of a lost job), and even if one re-trains, if we assume those 30,000 people or so are staying in Sunderland, it will take a while to attract the businesses to the area to employ those re-trained folk.

So it goes full circle again in that the best option for people really is to be mobile and move to where their skills might find employment, but folks don't like influxes of new people as the state apparatus is not flexible enough to give towns additional funding to help cope with it.

I'm not sure how leaving the EU will change any of that, as there hasn't been a word uttered by any of the parties on either side (remain or leave) that has addressed any of this. It seems if we're directing anger somewhere it should be less at the EU and more at our hopeless politicians. We already have all of the 'sovereignty' we need to deal with this, but we've bungled it.

 

[YMJ]

We should remember that "the majority of people in this country" didn't vote for brexit.
52% of a 72% turn out is only 37.44%.
If the government had pushed through their union plans core public sector workers wouldn't have been able to strike for one day on that percentage as it is "not a mandate"