Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Disgruntledgoat]

Thats being kind. You can pin Labours post vote position on Corbyn, to a degree, but the Remain campaign? Nah.

Would disagree to an extent... when the leader of the second largest party in parliament (and one campaigning for remain at that) takes a 2 week holiday in the middle of a campaign, declines to share a stage on that campaign with the PM as he regards him as an extremist, goes on tv and lists several reasons why people would vote leave and is on record as being opposed to the EU for thirty years I think it's slightly disingenuous to write that off as having no influence whatsoever

 

[random]

This is what I never really understood, as though a vote for a Brexit backed by Johnson, Gove, Mogg et al was in any way a FU to the 'elite'. If anything, it's entrenched that 'elite' even more than it had before. I mean do you look at the cabinet and see "men/women of the people"?

if you get the opportunity try and read ‘well you did ask’ by Micheal Ashcroft, it touches on this very subject in a detailed way

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

if you get the opportunity try and read ‘well you did ask’ by Micheal Ashcroft, it touches on this very subject in a detailed way

Is the reason "that Boris looks a lahhhhhf. 'Es a card and no mistake" by any chance?

 

[Amw79]

I should say, and this also reflects on the "we send more money than we get" argument, that just being a member of the EU is hugely valuable. You might argue with the exact figures, but the CBI estimate that it's worth £10 for every £1 the UK contributes to the EU budget, through things like better trade, easier travel, human capital, knowledge exchanges, scientific research, and so on. Those things are then fed back into the UK economy by virtue of consumer spending, higher taxes, etc. 'That' is the value of membership, not a bike path or a statue.

It's a bit like the immigration argument. Taken individually you may look at a farm worker and think we can "train our own", but taken collectively, migrants are typically much younger than native people, much more likely to be in work and have fewer dependents, all of which means they are significant net-contributors to the public purse. Given that the UK, like the rest of the developed world, is not having sufficient babies to sustain the population, we will either have to massively change that or get comfortable with more migrants. Germany got that. The UK still buries its head in the sand.

yeah, I agree with all that, and I’m now much more aware of the benefits than I was at the time. This was a big failing of the remain campaign, scaring us about the dangers of leaving, and not selling us the benefits of staying. I’m comfortable in saying that I voted remain largely from a position of ignorance, and on the basis of a) not believing the gov had the skill to be able to implement a leave vote without Ballsing it up, b) the cynical focus on immigration by vote leave, which for me is a non issue.

I think Random’s post reflects reasonable points that many had (they actually remind me of a conversation I had with a colleague who voted leave and later regretted it). However there are likely just as many leave voters, who just bought into Farage’s “Breaking Point” / ‘invasion of brown people‘ narrative.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

if you get the opportunity try and read ‘well you did ask’ by Micheal Ashcroft, it touches on this very subject in a detailed way

I trust you're reading a broader range of books than just those that confirm that leaving the EU is a good thing?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

yeah, I agree with all that, and I’m now much more aware of the benefits than I was at the time. This was a big failing of the remain campaign, scaring us about the dangers of leaving, and not selling us the benefits of staying. I’m comfortable in saying that I voted remain largely from a position of ignorance, and on the basis of a) not believing the gov had the skill to be able to implement a leave vote without Ballsing it up, b) the cynical focus on immigration by vote leave, which for me is a non issue.

I think Random’s post reflects reasonable points that many had (they actually remind me of a conversation I had with a colleague who voted leave and later regretted it). However there are likely just as many leave voters, who just bought into Farage’s “Breaking Point” / ‘invasion of brown people‘ narrative.

It's been a problem for far longer than just the referendum period, as it was always far too easy to blame Europe for things that were really the fault of domestic institutions. I know @peteblue argues that this won't happen now as there is no other choice, but all the evidence from the Tories since the referendum is that they'll simply find other groups to blame for their mistakes instead. His desire for his government to take responsibility is sadly not materializing, and perhaps the saddest thing is that he himself appears to be shifting the goalposts so that the blame he himself apportions for our current situation is placed just where the government tells him to place it. It's okay to admit you were taken in by a bunch of con men.

 

[random]

I trust you're reading a broader range of books than just those that confirm that leaving the EU is a good thing?

I did post a screenshot of my collection last week & most support stayng in (if you care to look ar some of the titles)

 

[Amw79]

It's been a problem for far longer than just the referendum period, as it was always far too easy to blame Europe for things that were really the fault of domestic institutions. I know @peteblue argues that this won't happen now as there is no other choice, but all the evidence from the Tories since the referendum is that they'll simply find other groups to blame for their mistakes instead. His desire for his government to take responsibility is sadly not materializing, and perhaps the saddest thing is that he himself appears to be shifting the goalposts so that the blame he himself apportions for our current situation is placed just where the government tells him to place it. It's okay to admit you were taken in by a bunch of con men.

Agreed, much of the ‘blame Europe’ line, which has been peddled for decades, was instigated by Johnson himself when he was the Brussels reporter. As he said later:

Speaking to the BBC in 2005, Mr Johnson would describe the impact of his reporting as like “chucking these rocks over the garden wall” and listening to the “amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England”. Noting the “explosive” effect on the Conservative party of his coverage, he said it gave him a “rather weird sense of power”. (FT article)

As we’re now witnessing, the same people who praised Johnson for getting the WA agreed and through parliament, for his oven-ready deal, are now backing him for reversing his position, and breaking international law to do so. For those leavers, so entrenched, it will always be someone else’s fault - the EU, May, remain voters, but for the instigators behind the scenes like Cummings, breaking the system was the entire point, so it should be no surprise where we find ourselves.

 

[Tea_drinker]

What an appaling small time country we are becoming...

'Festival of Brexit' can play 'powerful role' in healing UK, organiser says

The man behind the "Festival of Brexit" issues a call for "big ideas" to bring the UK together.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Agreed, much of the ‘blame Europe’ line, which has been peddled for decades, was instigated by Johnson himself when he was the Brussels reporter. As he said later:

Speaking to the BBC in 2005, Mr Johnson would describe the impact of his reporting as like “chucking these rocks over the garden wall” and listening to the “amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England”. Noting the “explosive” effect on the Conservative party of his coverage, he said it gave him a “rather weird sense of power”. (FT article)

As we’re now witnessing, the same people who praised Johnson for getting the WA agreed and through parliament, for his oven-ready deal, are now backing him for reversing his position, and breaking international law to do so. For those leavers, so entrenched, it will always be someone else’s fault - the EU, May, remain voters, but for the instigators behind the scenes like Cummings, breaking the system was the entire point, so it should be no surprise where we find ourselves.

Which belies the illusion of the 'take back control' narrative, as if you're not going to hold those in power to account, then you're not taking back control at all, you're just empowering a dictatorship that (for now) you agree with.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

if you get the opportunity try and read ‘well you did ask’ by Micheal Ashcroft, it touches on this very subject in a detailed way

Do you support his non domicile status? Because that [Poor language removed] can jog on, and on that basis I cant entertain the likes of him, at least the likes of Farage actually have the courage to reside in the UK, even if he does declare he is afraid black people...

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Would disagree to an extent... when the leader of the second largest party in parliament (and one campaigning for remain at that) takes a 2 week holiday in the middle of a campaign, declines to share a stage on that campaign with the PM as he regards him as an extremist, goes on tv and lists several reasons why people would vote leave and is on record as being opposed to the EU for thirty years I think it's slightly disingenuous to write that off as having no influence whatsoever

This is why we have ended up with Brexit and Johnson and Cummings running the country, because of enablers like yourself.

You might want to take a look at his voting record rather than regurgitate opinion from snide opinion writers for Murdoch and Lebedev... Sure he was EU reformer and voted against it many times times, however, and when you go down into the detail past the headline vote, that's Corbyn agenda.

Here is some help, not that it matters with entrenchment, Farage and such like with you and yours views are are just the opposite cheek of the same buttock...

Voting record - Jeremy Corbyn MP, Islington North

See how Jeremy Corbyn voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.

www.theyworkforyou.com

 

[Jebus_lives]

Have a go if you want mate, plenty seem to relish in it

But on a more serious note;

All my reading and the still very little knowledge, I have is after the event mate. I didn't even know there were two courts in Europe !

head or heart ? difficult to determine, bit of both. I will give you some of my thoughts at the time, and you can decide

1. There was a speech in parliament that went along the lines of 'how can the public trust us when we cant trust ourselves ?' (giving away our powers to the EU, didn't like the sound of that)

2. More money going out than in, and I was aware of that before the big red bus (which I wasn't entirely convinced by, but it did cost money for membership for sure and it was a lot)

3. homeless people on the streets around here, yet I read about £50k rock sculptures being erected in town centres fully funded by the EU, whats that all about ? priorities all wrong, look after the citizens, do something to help lives then get all artzy farty if there is any money left

4. I just don't like what the press call 'political elites'. The thought of a bunch of politicians on mainland Europe making the rules that govern me ? how do they know what I want ? who would I contact ? just seemed like a big organisation and I would have absolutely no say in what went on in there. At least here I can walk to the MP's local office if I need to. Bruce said he supported frederalism, I am the opposite.

5. and the main one, and this is absolutely the top of the pile. Cameron, Obama, Richard Branson, and all the others telling me how the EU is so much better for everyone. Then I drive through the town and see the utter devastation thats been inflicted on the place so this was my one opportunity to say F.U all. - and yes I am aware that it isn't the all EU's fault, although the fishing quotas didn't help, that does not stop the gov spending money here. so to all those politicians who knew what was best for me while I saw with my own eyes the opposite ? yeah FU, and have a middle finger while I vote to leave.


Note 1. I have a daughter and granddaughter so anything I did was with their future in mind, if I had thought being in the EU was going to be better for them then that makes my vote change.

Note 2. Immigration and racism, I can't speak for other parts of the country but around here there isn't any of either. We don't have any settled immigrants, sorry that spoils the general narrative but we just don't, people from other EU countries just haven't affected my life in anyway shape or form. (As far as racism goes two idiots did set fire to the local mosque door a few years ago, but that was more to do with ISIS than the EU according to their testimony at trial.)

Note 3.
a. If I lived in London or a city and saw some of the good the EU does I probably vote differently. but I don't.
b. If I lived in a town where there were a lot of immigrants 'taking all the jobs' then the Farage posters probably affect my vote. But I don't.

let me know, was it head or heart ?

Spoiler: my view

Heart

If you want a sensible debate, you might do better not pandering to the fishing and provocative posts from @peteblue

As it is you look like you're playing innocent after you poked the tiger.

 

[orchard]

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

This is why we have ended up with Brexit and Johnson and Cummings running the country, because of enablers like yourself.

You might want to take a look at his voting record rather than regurgitate opinion from snide opinion writers for Murdoch and Lebedev... Sure he was EU reformer and voted against it many times times, however, and when you go down into the detail past the headline vote, that's Corbyn agenda.

Here is some help, not that it matters with entrenchment, Farage and such like with you and yours views are are just the opposite cheek of the same buttock...

Voting record - Jeremy Corbyn MP, Islington North

See how Jeremy Corbyn voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.

www.theyworkforyou.com

Wait a second... I am critical of Jeremy Corbyn's agnostic approach to campaigning to remain in the EU and I am enabler of the current administration? For the record I haven't lived or voted in the UK since February in 2014, so you'll have to look elsewhere for that.

Jeremy Corbyn was/is a Bennite. Both Corbyn and Benn before him have repeatedly mentioned that social and economic cooperation with Europe was to be welcomed but that it could not be under the 4 pillars of the EEC and later the EU: Namely freedom of movement of goods, services, capital and labour. If you want a relationship with the EU that is not based on these, you are looking for a relationship with an EU that does not exist. If you wish to study the voting record you provided me with, you will see he has voted against every European treaty since 1983. I am not sure how rejecting the "Indivisible Freedoms" of the Union and voting against it at every turn can be construed as support.

Again, you seem to be assuming that because I am opposed to Corbyn's stance on the issue I am supportive of the Conservative position. This is not the case.