Current Affairs EU In or Out
- Thread starter micknick
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random
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Have a go if you want mate, plenty seem to relish in it
But on a more serious note;
All my reading and the still very little knowledge, I have is after the event mate. I didn't even know there were two courts in Europe !
head or heart ? difficult to determine, bit of both. I will give you some of my thoughts at the time, and you can decide
1. There was a speech in parliament that went along the lines of 'how can the public trust us when we cant trust ourselves ?' (giving away our powers to the EU, didn't like the sound of that)
2. More money going out than in, and I was aware of that before the big red bus (which I wasn't entirely convinced by, but it did cost money for membership for sure and it was a lot)
3. homeless people on the streets around here, yet I read about £50k rock sculptures being erected in town centres fully funded by the EU, whats that all about ? priorities all wrong, look after the citizens, do something to help lives then get all artzy farty if there is any money left
4. I just don't like what the press call 'political elites'. The thought of a bunch of politicians on mainland Europe making the rules that govern me ? how do they know what I want ? who would I contact ? just seemed like a big organisation and I would have absolutely no say in what went on in there. At least here I can walk to the MP's local office if I need to. Bruce said he supported frederalism, I am the opposite.
5. and the main one, and this is absolutely the top of the pile. Cameron, Obama, Richard Branson, and all the others telling me how the EU is so much better for everyone. Then I drive through the town and see the utter devastation thats been inflicted on the place so this was my one opportunity to say F.U all. - and yes I am aware that it isn't the all EU's fault, although the fishing quotas didn't help, that does not stop the gov spending money here. so to all those politicians who knew what was best for me while I saw with my own eyes the opposite ? yeah FU, and have a middle finger while I vote to leave.
Note 1. I have a daughter and granddaughter so anything I did was with their future in mind, if I had thought being in the EU was going to be better for them then that makes my vote change.
Note 2. Immigration and racism, I can't speak for other parts of the country but around here there isn't any of either. We don't have any settled immigrants, sorry that spoils the general narrative but we just don't, people from other EU countries just haven't affected my life in anyway shape or form. (As far as racism goes two idiots did set fire to the local mosque door a few years ago, but that was more to do with ISIS than the EU according to their testimony at trial.)
Note 3.
a. If I lived in London or a city and saw some of the good the EU does I probably vote differently. but I don't.
b. If I lived in a town where there were a lot of immigrants 'taking all the jobs' then the Farage posters probably affect my vote. But I don't.
let me know, was it head or heart ?
Heart
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Tea_drinker
Player Valuation: £15m
In his heart of hearts he doesnt like foreigners.
random
Player Valuation: £15m
get a life
random
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Found this, as I said immigration isn't a thing, does not affect people around these parts 4% at last census
Tea_drinker
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Touched a nerve.
NilSatisOptimum
Player Valuation: £70m
Those statistics dont include the seasonal immigrant worker in fishing industry and farming which many Lincolnshire business has relied on.
Have a go if you want mate, plenty seem to relish in it
But on a more serious note;
All my reading and the still very little knowledge, I have is after the event mate. I didn't even know there were two courts in Europe !
head or heart ? difficult to determine, bit of both. I will give you some of my thoughts at the time, and you can decide
1. There was a speech in parliament that went along the lines of 'how can the public trust us when we cant trust ourselves ?' (giving away our powers to the EU, didn't like the sound of that)
2. More money going out than in, and I was aware of that before the big red bus (which I wasn't entirely convinced by, but it did cost money for membership for sure and it was a lot)
3. homeless people on the streets around here, yet I read about £50k rock sculptures being erected in town centres fully funded by the EU, whats that all about ? priorities all wrong, look after the citizens, do something to help lives then get all artzy farty if there is any money left
4. I just don't like what the press call 'political elites'. The thought of a bunch of politicians on mainland Europe making the rules that govern me ? how do they know what I want ? who would I contact ? just seemed like a big organisation and I would have absolutely no say in what went on in there. At least here I can walk to the MP's local office if I need to. Bruce said he supported frederalism, I am the opposite.
5. and the main one, and this is absolutely the top of the pile. Cameron, Obama, Richard Branson, and all the others telling me how the EU is so much better for everyone. Then I drive through the town and see the utter devastation thats been inflicted on the place so this was my one opportunity to say F.U all. - and yes I am aware that it isn't the all EU's fault, although the fishing quotas didn't help, that does not stop the gov spending money here. so to all those politicians who knew what was best for me while I saw with my own eyes the opposite ? yeah FU, and have a middle finger while I vote to leave.
Note 1. I have a daughter and granddaughter so anything I did was with their future in mind, if I had thought being in the EU was going to be better for them then that makes my vote change.
Note 2. Immigration and racism, I can't speak for other parts of the country but around here there isn't any of either. We don't have any settled immigrants, sorry that spoils the general narrative but we just don't, people from other EU countries just haven't affected my life in anyway shape or form. (As far as racism goes two idiots did set fire to the local mosque door a few years ago, but that was more to do with ISIS than the EU according to their testimony at trial.)
Note 3.
a. If I lived in London or a city and saw some of the good the EU does I probably vote differently. but I don't.
b. If I lived in a town where there were a lot of immigrants 'taking all the jobs' then the Farage posters probably affect my vote. But I don't.
let me know, was it head or heart ?
Heart
Think this is a good post of pretty reasonable points. Points which, had occurred to me prior to the the vote, and contributed to me being persuadable during the campaign (as I said somewhere above - I was 60/40 remain prior to the vote).
My differences I guess, was that I live near Liverpool, so Directly saw the good that EU money had done here (points 2 & 3), and know that wastage of public money is at least as big a problem by our gov as it is in the EU. Re point 5 - I too was dubious what of Cameron and others were Selling us, but when I looked at the other side - Farage, Johnson Et al, I found what they were selling was division, nationalism and fear.
As I said yesterday, my main reason for voting remain was probably pragmatism, and not having faith that our current set of politicians could tackle something as complex as leaving (legislative entanglement, complex fine grained trade agreeemnts) without completely ballsing it up, and I think this has probably been borne out, so far.
This is what I never really understood, as though a vote for a Brexit backed by Johnson, Gove, Mogg et al was in any way a FU to the 'elite'. If anything, it's entrenched that 'elite' even more than it had before. I mean do you look at the cabinet and see "men/women of the people"?
NilSatisOptimum
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The 'national conversation' on effects of immigration for Grimsby finds and suggests negativity.
Grimsby: attitudes to immigration have “everything to do with opportunities” – National Conversation
Grimsby, a seaport town in North Lincolnshire, was the National Conversation’s last visit to Yorkshire and Humberside. Here where we met with stakeholders and local people to discuss migration.
nationalconversation.uk
Grimsby is not unique in its struggle to manage its attitudes towards the foreign worker, pretending everything and everyone is equal in Utopian Grimsby, is very unique.
I should say, and this also reflects on the "we send more money than we get" argument, that just being a member of the EU is hugely valuable. You might argue with the exact figures, but the CBI estimate that it's worth £10 for every £1 the UK contributes to the EU budget, through things like better trade, easier travel, human capital, knowledge exchanges, scientific research, and so on. Those things are then fed back into the UK economy by virtue of consumer spending, higher taxes, etc. 'That' is the value of membership, not a bike path or a statue.
It's a bit like the immigration argument. Taken individually you may look at a farm worker and think we can "train our own", but taken collectively, migrants are typically much younger than native people, much more likely to be in work and have fewer dependents, all of which means they are significant net-contributors to the public purse. Given that the UK, like the rest of the developed world, is not having sufficient babies to sustain the population, we will either have to massively change that or get comfortable with more migrants. Germany got that. The UK still buries its head in the sand.
NilSatisOptimum
Player Valuation: £70m
random
Player Valuation: £15m
indeed, as I pointed out, if I lived elsewhere I might vote the other way. but only right that I let folks know the area I am talking about in my post
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