Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Disgruntledgoat]

That's not my understanding of it. At the time of Munich, the combined Czech, French and British forces would have comfortably outnumbered the Germans. What's more, the Czech army was highly sophisticated because their manufacturing base was incredibly good, and was arguably superior to the Germans on its own. The fact that they were essentially surrendered to the Germans not only gave Hitler an awful lot of advanced equipment, but gave them more time to bolster their own ranks.

Even then, the Poles, who had a lot of numbers but relatively primitive equipment, gave them a sufficient fight to have been in with a chance had the French not sat on their hands on the western front, and the British said they would help and actually done bugger all.

If you look at the book What If, it clearly states that in 1938, the Germans were not in a good state for war at all, and it was only their efforts in 1939 plus their plundering of the Skoda works that gave them the formidable force with which to roll through the Benelux. It's obviously conjecture, but it seems quite likely that things could have been very different had the British and French been less shitty, especially as it might have kept Russia from picking over the carcass of Poland and entering the war.

The other factor to remember here is that the officials responsible for welching on deals they didn't make would have felt the bony hand of history on their shoulder and the need to avert another WW1 with its attendant casualties. It's easy with history to call it simple deception but most thoughts of appeasement were led by a simple desire to avoid a europe wide war.

Russia entered the war when Germany attacked them, breaking their alliance.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The other factor to remember here is that the officials responsible for welching on deals they didn't make would have felt the bony hand of history on their shoulder and the need to avert another WW1 with its attendant casualties. It's easy with history to call it simple deception but most thoughts of appeasement were led by a simple desire to avoid a europe wide war.

Russia entered the war when Germany attacked them, breaking their alliance.

Of course, I wouldn't say it's easy whatsoever, but it's a pertinent counterpoint to any willy waving that Britain won the war and is therefore wonderful. Chamberlain was given a heroes reception when he returned from Munich, so I've no doubt many agreed with him. Nonetheless, he was wrong, and Britain and France were wrong with Poland as well.

Russia did invade Poland as part of their alliance with Germany, due in large part to Poland being decimated by then and relatively easy pickings. It was a safe land grab for them, but if you ask a Pole when Russia entered the war, you will undoubtedly hear stories of their horrific treatment at the hands of the Russians. Lest we forget, we were still engaged in our phony war when the Red Army was massacring the Polish officer corp in the Katyn Forest.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Let’s be honest, it’s better than the EU anyway......

World Wars are better than the EU?

 

[Tubey]

Of course, I wouldn't say it's easy whatsoever, but it's a pertinent counterpoint to any willy waving that Britain won the war and is therefore wonderful. Chamberlain was given a heroes reception when he returned from Munich, so I've no doubt many agreed with him. Nonetheless, he was wrong, and Britain and France were wrong with Poland as well.

Russia did invade Poland as part of their alliance with Germany, due in large part to Poland being decimated by then and relatively easy pickings. It was a safe land grab for them, but if you ask a Pole when Russia entered the war, you will undoubtedly hear stories of their horrific treatment at the hands of the Russians. Lest we forget, we were still engaged in our phony war when the Red Army was massacring the Polish officer corp in the Katyn Forest.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact split Poland into spheres of influence long before Germany attacked. It was pre-arranged.

 

[edge]

Of course, I wouldn't say it's easy whatsoever, but it's a pertinent counterpoint to any willy waving that Britain won the war and is therefore wonderful. Chamberlain was given a heroes reception when he returned from Munich, so I've no doubt many agreed with him. Nonetheless, he was wrong, and Britain and France were wrong with Poland as well.

Russia did invade Poland as part of their alliance with Germany, due in large part to Poland being decimated by then and relatively easy pickings. It was a safe land grab for them, but if you ask a Pole when Russia entered the war, you will undoubtedly hear stories of their horrific treatment at the hands of the Russians. Lest we forget, we were still engaged in our phony war when the Red Army was massacring the Polish officer corp in the Katyn Forest.

Britain were the only nation to supply Warsaw when they rebelled in 1944, the Russian army stayed on the other side of the Vistula river and watched the German army smash the polish resistance and city to hell, and denied us permission to use there airspace to airlift supplies.
We did drop what the UK could do anyway despite that pretty limited admittedly.
There are plenty of photos of German and Russian troops meeting amiably on bridges at the time exchanging cigarette's ect ,although enemy's at the time.
The poles had taken control of most of the city at one time and the Russian army would not respond to them by radio.
And stayed outside of the city limits.
They didn't want the free polish government there in walsall or London to have a foothold.
No wonder they dont like the Russians.

 

[Jebus_lives]

A shiny penny for anyone that can tell me what is wrong with this!

 

[Barnfred 55]

That's not my understanding of it. At the time of Munich, the combined Czech, French and British forces would have comfortably outnumbered the Germans. What's more, the Czech army was highly sophisticated because their manufacturing base was incredibly good, and was arguably superior to the Germans on its own. The fact that they were essentially surrendered to the Germans not only gave Hitler an awful lot of advanced equipment, but gave them more time to bolster their own ranks.

Even then, the Poles, who had a lot of numbers but relatively primitive equipment, gave them a sufficient fight to have been in with a chance had the French not sat on their hands on the western front, and the British said they would help and actually done bugger all.

If you look at the book What If, it clearly states that in 1938, the Germans were not in a good state for war at all, and it was only their efforts in 1939 plus their plundering of the Skoda works that gave them the formidable force with which to roll through the Benelux. It's obviously conjecture, but it seems quite likely that things could have been very different had the British and French been less shitty, especially as it might have kept Russia from picking over the carcass of Poland and entering the war.

The betrayal of the Czechs I was referring to WAS the Munich conference in which they allowed Germany to annex Sudetenland.

I haven't seen the book What If, but immediately 3 questions come to mind. If the Czech army was so sophisticated why did it just allow the Germans to take them over without a shot being fired? Given the numerous German automotive giants already under their control, Daimler, Audi and VW, etc, I find it hard to believe that it was actually the annexation of Skoda plant that turned them into the global super power. And finally, it was pretty much just 12 months after Munich that the Germans were knocking crap out of the French and British.

I'm not saying that acquiring the Czech army didn't make them stronger, but the view that we could have stopped them just 12 months earlier I'm not having.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Britain stood by its obligations for Poland. Indeed we only declared war on Germany because of a guarantee of support. Why the U.K. even gave any such guarantee is one for debate, as Eastern Europe was completely outside our sphere of interest. As you say, there was very little the U.K. could actually do at the time because of our spread across the world. But let’s not blame Germany for invading, let’s blame Britain....

WE could have done more for Poland Pete. We stuffed the Czechs up the arse at Munich when we gave Sudetenland back to the Germans, behind the Czechs backs too. That's like the EU giving NI back to Ireland without us having a say.

Within a few months of this the Germans basically invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia and then started lining up on the borders of Poland. We knew they were going to invade but still did nothing. We could have sent troops. We could have sent our navy to help those that wanted to evacuate. I don't believe we could have stopped the Germans as Bruce is suggesting, but we could certainly have done more.

 

[edge]

WE could have done more for Poland Pete. We stuffed the Czechs up the arse at Munich when we gave Sudetenland back to the Germans, behind the Czechs backs too. That's like the EU giving NI back to Ireland without us having a say.

Within a few months of this the Germans basically invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia and then started lining up on the borders of Poland. We knew they were going to invade but still did nothing. We could have sent troops. We could have sent our navy to help those that wanted to evacuate. I don't believe we could have stopped the Germans as Bruce is suggesting, but we could certainly have done more.

We didn't have a army at the outbreak of the war anywhere big enough to do anything much, thanks to the ten year plan brought into force in the twenties, it basically left us with a poorly equipped small full time army that was designed for peace time, basically to police the empire ,the navy was seen as the better option at the time, that was at least seemed fit for purpose.
Take mechanical forces we had two battalions the Germans had 7 and miles better equipment.
Germany had been doing rearming slowly since the late twenties and Hitler announced it in 1935 openly
In one of his speeches
The French were in much better shape numbers and equipment wise, it was miles bigger than the UK army, it could and should have smashed the germans in the months leading up to the outbreak of war , there weakness was in there leadership unlike the german military at the time was very poor.
People should really look at what was actually happening with the British army at the time before expecting them to do much more than they did at the outbreak of the war.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Can we get back to calling each other racist gammons and privileged millennials please

 

[edge]

Can we get back to calling each other racist gammons and privileged millennials please

Ok mate, its hone of track a bit hasn't it

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Ok mate, its hone of track a bit hasn't it

It has. Can I just ask, as you’re a fairly staunch labour supporter, and probably one of the less polarised leave voters on here, whether you would still vote the same way in the referendum knowing that as a partial consequence, we will endure at least 5 more years of Tory rule? Not meaning to sound particularly arsey or anything.

 

[Old Blue 2]

You do know it was the Americans and the Russians who really won the war
Britain would have been invaded without their intervention

That is wrong, 100%.

Consider what it took in June 1944 to cross the Channel. Then consider what the Germans had available in 1940. No way they could have crossed the Channel in 1940 in barges. And their fleet of transport aircraft (Ju52/3m aircraft) took a real malleting in May 1940 at the beginning of the Western Campaign, such that it was in no fit state to be able to undertake any kind of airborne invasion of southern England in the following months.

 

[edge]

It has. Can I just ask, as you’re a fairly staunch labour supporter, and probably one of the less polarised leave voters on here, whether you would still vote the same way in the referendum knowing that as a partial consequence, we will endure at least 5 more years of Tory rule? Not meaning to sound particularly arsey or anything.

i openly said before the GE, i would have seen the end of brexit, rather than have the tories in power, well Johnson to be exact ,
I feel he will be more danger to the working man than the EU ever was.
He like him or not is intelligent and gets the things he wants done, with little regard for anybody or anything outside of his interests.
Don't think the working class , is top of his list unless its to get him and his what they want .
i voted Labour despite my misgivings on the party and its leadership , and would have done so even if the went all out to stay.
DON'T trust Johnson , and feel even normally leaning tory voters will see a side of the party they haven't seen before.
hope i am wrong

 

[JimmyJeffers]

i openly said before the GE, i would have seen the end of brexit, rather than have the tories in power, well Johnson to be exact ,
I feel he will be more danger to the working man than the EU ever was.
He like him or not is intelligent and gets the things he wants done, with little regard for anybody or anything outside of his interests.
Don't think the working class , is top of his list unless its to get him and his what they want .
i voted Labour despite my misgivings on the party and its leadership , and would have done so even if the went all out to stay.
DON'T trust Johnson , and feel even normally leaning tory voters will see a side of the party they haven't seen before.
hope i am wrong

Guess we’ll have to see. Don’t trust Johnson either to be fair. No idea how things are going to pan out but I’m not very optimistic.