Current Affairs EU In or Out

[bluejim95]

Sad, but very true.

I don't think there is any doubt frictionless trade with the EU will put the UK car industry in danger, and tariffs will most likely kill it. But even had we stayed in the EU the long term health of our car industry has always been in question, purely down to the fact that it is foreign owned. The car industry is facing the biggest global change in it's history, that of the electric car. Billions of new investment is required and we would be fools to believe that companies like Nissan BMW etc will not be concentrating that investment in their own countries. In effect we lost our car industry when we allowed overseas companies to control it.

That is why I would like to see us use Brexit as an opportunity to kick start our own industry again. Instead of lamenting the loss in jobs when these companies pull out of the UK, why can't we turn these plants into a new UK owned business dedicated to making us a centre of excellence in the manufacture of electric cars. It would need billions of state support initially, but if the workers reinvested their redundancy money into the new enterprise in exchange for shares, there's potentially billions more investment from that source. We have a skilled workforce, the infrastructure required and some of the best design engineers in the world. We could steal a march on the rest of the world in the production of electric cars and the more we sell in this country the better for our green gas targets too.

Pie in the sky?. Most probably, and I accept it's a lot more complex than my simple scenario is making out. But these are the sort of things we should be looking at rather than just accepting it's all doom and gloom. We should be making plans now so we are ready for when it happens.

I'm not sure a company ties itself to a country these days. They simply follow the money. Plus it's bad for business. People actually treat companies and brands the same way they would treat people, they look for the same attributes. Once you lose trust in a company/brand, you dont go back.

The government would be able to keep the car industry going by cutting taxes and import/export duties... but that would come out of their pocket and I'm sure that isn't their game. They certainly never prepare.

Great idea though, I'd buy shares.

 

[Yarrgh]

Given free reign she has stated she would gladly be executing people and the possibility of wrongful convictions doesn't worry her. I'm still a bit confused as to where she is on the stupid/evil axis on that one

She may be on both.

 

[summerisle]

Do you not think he showed some principles today?

Also, although he campaigned for remain in the run up to the referendum, Parliament, when they passed the referendum bill, agreed to stand by the outcome (effectively negating the referendums advisory status), so despite his own personal views he was actually obeying the laws of the land when he subsequently worked to bring about Brexit. One could argue that he showed a good level of principles in doing just that.

I don't know what you do as a living Jimmy, but have you ever had to do something that went against what you believe in?. I have. All too often and I never once felt good about it.

Tory's and principles ? If he actually believed in what he says he would not agree to be a government minister in the first place. If that's not the case what is the purpose of having principles if they're so easily cast aside ?

 

[Jebus_lives]

Fantastic to see we've taken back control of our laws from the EU, so that the government can take control of our laws from the courts.

Nothing like being sovereign and democratic eh lads?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Sad, but very true.

I don't think there is any doubt frictionless trade with the EU will put the UK car industry in danger, and tariffs will most likely kill it. But even had we stayed in the EU the long term health of our car industry has always been in question, purely down to the fact that it is foreign owned. The car industry is facing the biggest global change in it's history, that of the electric car. Billions of new investment is required and we would be fools to believe that companies like Nissan BMW etc will not be concentrating that investment in their own countries. In effect we lost our car industry when we allowed overseas companies to control it.

That is why I would like to see us use Brexit as an opportunity to kick start our own industry again. Instead of lamenting the loss in jobs when these companies pull out of the UK, why can't we turn these plants into a new UK owned business dedicated to making us a centre of excellence in the manufacture of electric cars. It would need billions of state support initially, but if the workers reinvested their redundancy money into the new enterprise in exchange for shares, there's potentially billions more investment from that source. We have a skilled workforce, the infrastructure required and some of the best design engineers in the world. We could steal a march on the rest of the world in the production of electric cars and the more we sell in this country the better for our green gas targets too.

Pie in the sky?. Most probably, and I accept it's a lot more complex than my simple scenario is making out. But these are the sort of things we should be looking at rather than just accepting it's all doom and gloom. We should be making plans now so we are ready for when it happens.

Nissan already build the Leaf in Sunderland, to suggest the industry was going to die anyway because of the shift to EV’s, so hey ho, is abject nonsense mate.

As is the idea that U.K. Govt could somehow turn an empty factory into a state owned car manufacturer, sorry. VAG have already invested €30BN into EV development with a further €30BN going in over the next 5 years. Steal a march? No mate.

Somewhat ironic that a Tory Govt is going to oversee the demise of the ‘born again’ U.K. car industry that Thatcher kick started when she offered massive incentives to Nissan, who wanted a base for their EU market manufacturing base. It’ll be killed by Brexit and the future relationship that this current shower seem intent on inflicting on us, driven solely by flawed ideology and populism.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Tory's and principles ? If he actually believed in what he says he would not agree to be a government minister in the first place. If that's not the case what is the purpose of having principles if they're so easily cast aside ?

Perhaps his belief in democracy and parliamentary law outweighs his view that the UK would be better off in the EU than out of it. Perhaps his belief that he should represent his constituents (which voted 55% to 45% leave) outweighs his own personal views.

Don't confuse preferences, or even politics, with principles. They are not the same.

And your insinuation that Tory MPs can't have principles is quite simply ridiculous mate. I bet you weren't saying that about Letwin, Clarke, Grieve and Soubry.

 

[summerisle]

Perhaps his belief in democracy and parliamentary law outweighs his view that the UK would be better off in the EU than out of it. Perhaps his belief that he should represent his constituents (which voted 55% to 45% leave) outweighs his own personal views.

Don't confuse preferences, or even politics, with principles. They are not the same.

And your insinuation that Tory MPs can't have principles is quite simply ridiculous mate. I bet you weren't saying that about Letwin, Clarke, Grieve and Soubry.

The discussion revolved around whether Javid was principled in resigning from office. If we define principles as :
'A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as a foundation for a system of belief or behaviour'
then Javid on the one hand saying that leaving the EU is a guarantee of a lost decade for British business, and on the other, being fully behind Brexit, to my mind says that he is not a man of principle.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Nissan already build the Leaf in Sunderland, to suggest the industry was going to die anyway because of the shift to EV’s, so hey ho, is abject nonsense mate.

As is the idea that U.K. Govt could somehow turn an empty factory into a state owned car manufacturer, sorry. VAG have already invested €30BN into EV development with a further €30BN going in over the next 5 years. Steal a march? No mate.

Somewhat ironic that a Tory Govt is going to oversee the demise of the ‘born again’ U.K. car industry that Thatcher kick started when she offered massive incentives to Nissan, who wanted a base for their EU market manufacturing base. It’ll be killed by Brexit and the future relationship that this current shower seem intent on inflicting on us, driven solely by flawed ideology and populism.

Electric cars are roughly 1.5% of global car sales. Over the next 10 to 20 years that's going to increase gradually to 100%. That's the massive investment I was talking about and the UK wasn't getting much, if any of it. If you believe it was you are deluded. Honda has already said it will be building all it's electric cars in Japan. Nissans plant in the US is already primed to increase production by 500% even without any more investment. Germany and France will look after it's own too. Tata will probably just close down the Jaguar/LR plants

I'm not expecting the UK government to revive our car manufacturing industry. In fact I think I said it was pie in the sky. What I'm saying is that it should be. And they can steal a march because they would be starting from scratch focusing purely on electric cars. All the competitors are also committed to fossil fuelled cars for at least the next 10 years whilst electric car production is rolled out.

 

[Catfish Blues]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-51473219

It would be weird if one of the areas that voted to Remain ended up benefitting from the Leave vote, while areas that voted Leave ended up worse off.

Plainly Peel are more than happy to take advantage of the situation, which, bizarrely, may then benefit us as a club. Strange times we live in.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Electric cars are roughly 1.5% of global car sales. Over the next 10 to 20 years that's going to increase gradually to 100%. That's the massive investment I was talking about and the UK wasn't getting much, if any of it. If you believe it was you are deluded. Honda has already said it will be building all it's electric cars in Japan. Nissans plant in the US is already primed to increase production by 500% even without any more investment. Germany and France will look after it's own too. Tata will probably just close down the Jaguar/LR plants

I'm not expecting the UK government to revive our car manufacturing industry. In fact I think I said it was pie in the sky. What I'm saying is that it should be. And they can steal a march because they would be starting from scratch focusing purely on electric cars. All the competitors are also committed to fossil fuelled cars for at least the next 10 years whilst electric car production is rolled out.

You’ve just destroyed your own argument by mentioning that Nissans US plant is planning massive expansion.

There was no reason that U.K. based plants couldn’t have been retooled to produce EV’s, however, the loss of SM & CU access makes that highly unlikely for most of them, given that over half of U.K. production is for EU mainland markets.

See Dyson for details of how ‘pie in the sky’ it is for a non automotive manufacturer to start EV production from scratch. Even Telsa will never truly be able to compete as a profitable volume manufacturer, as they simply haven’t got the scale, they’ve still never posted an annual profit. I suspect Musk figured this out beards ago, and will push that business towards battery development and production.

 

[Barnfred 55]

The discussion revolved around whether Javid was principled in resigning from office. If we define principles as :
'A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as a foundation for a system of belief or behaviour'
then Javid on the one hand saying that leaving the EU is a guarantee of a lost decade for British business, and on the other, being fully behind Brexit, to my mind says that he is not a man of principle.

Well yes. But the two examples I gave were also principles.

It appears to me that something can only be a principle if it's something you agree with.

 

[summerisle]

Well yes. But the two examples I gave were also principles.

It appears to me that something can only be a principle if it's something you agree with.

I agree.

 

[Barnfred 55]

You’ve just destroyed your own argument by mentioning that Nissans US plant is planning massive expansion.

Read it again. The plant already has the capability. It just doesn't have the demand. Yet.

Look mate. A lot of my original post is agreeing with you that our car industry will be damaged by Brexit, even if we get a trade deal. If we don't it will be much worse. I'm not one of those Brexiteers who ignores the obvious. But I still firmly believe it would have been gone in another 10 years anyway, and I don't take any satisfaction from that, just sadness.

Car manufacturing is still one of our biggest industries with over 150,000 workforce. We have many profitable plants and a highly skilled workforce. If Brexit talks go tits up most of that will be lost, and it pisses me off that we don't have any politicians in this country that can see the opportunity to kick start a new UK car industry. Yes it will take massive public investment to get it off the ground, but the infrastructure and skills to make it work do exist. Just not the political will or vision.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I agree.

Sorry mate but who made you God?

 

[peteblue]

It would be weird if one of the areas that voted to Remain ended up benefitting from the Leave vote, while areas that voted Leave ended up worse off.

Plainly Peel are more than happy to take advantage of the situation, which, bizarrely, may then benefit us as a club. Strange times we live in.

I’ve said this all along. The Port of Liverpool will benefit greatly from Brexit and the focus away from Europe. The European focus was exactly why it initially deteriorated....