Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Tubey]

It was something else on Facebook I was looking up.

The quote about them refusing to talk to us.

At a meeting of the Heads of Government of the other states in June 2016, leaders decided that they would not start any negotiation before the UK formally invoked Article 50. Consequently, the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, ordered all members of the EU Commission not to engage in any kind of contact with UK parties regarding Brexit

They didn't "refuse" - we didn't ask. Because A50 states that a member state needs to leave according to its' own constitutional requirements.

By opening the door before it was triggered by the member state, the EU could and would have been accused of undue pressure to 'kick out' the UK.

The onus on starting the process to leave was always with the UK.

 

[Tubey]

if we voted in say a Labour government and spent the next 3 years stopping that happening , through the courts parliament pulling stunts, left right and centre and a blatantly biased speaker allowing it
would you be happy with that, if people said although it hasn't even happened , you have changed your mind we think , no proof to back it up with, but we know better
would that be ok just to call for a new vote?

Similar things have happened many times through history. Not that exact scenario sure but similar battles between executive and parliament. Callaghan with the Winter of Discontent leading to the rise of Thatcher; a GE called due to a no confidence motion after months of political turmoil etc.

That said, I disagree with what Goat says of course - a referendum would be pointless if we just re-ran every single one all the time. It's what distinguishes it from a GE.

The problem with the 2016 referendum is one of clarity. The Scottish referendum had the advantage of the status quo winning, so looked cleaner, but in reality if Scotland had voted to leave they would have had extremely similar challenges to deal with - or worse really as they'd have had to leave the UK then re-join the EU. Instead, the 2016 referendum resulted in a request for monumental change and, critically, that change wasn't clarified in terms of procedure by those pushing for it.

Nobody, hand on heart, can say now, in 2019, that they knew what leave meant. And I include everyone in that, not just 'leavers'. So that's the problem we have - any decision now isn't really 'the will of the people' - it's a guess; "whatever we can get across the line."

I don't think that's the best way to make a decision that will fundamentally alter a country.

Put it back to the people, get informed consent - if the country really is suicidal and wants out on no deal or by splitting off Northern Ireland, then so be it, but let's confirm that totally rather than have decades of crap over this.

Because that's the part people are missing - this may get over the line with a crap deal, or it may be revoked, but either way it'd murder this country for decades unless there is a democratically decisive outcome. Brexit doesn't end this.

 

[davek]

This part though.



I have no idea what this achieves. You get sent back a hung parliament, 99/100, because one issue is dominant. And if that hung parliament has the balance of votes in any way towards remain, then the issue goes on perpetually.

It needs a second referendum. Again, if Johnson was smart, he'd take ownership of it - make it happen on his terms. He could even play dirty - paint it as "wasting the peoples time" or whatever spin he wants, but ultimately he'd be able to campaign saying "I trust the British people to affirm the vote" or whatever. The point would be he'd be able to go into the referendum not being forced into it, which is political suicide and you'd expect him to resign before contesting it.

I think it's just realpolitik; there's no majority for a 2nd referendum in parliament right now.

Get to an election and see how Johnson looks having been made to look weak and ineffectual in getting his deal through, and also watch how the Tories fend off the BXT Party armed with a massive cudgel to beat Johnson with having gone for May Deal MkII.

 

[Kurt.]

I think it's just realpolitik; there's no majority for a 2nd referendum in parliament right now.

Get to an election and see how Johnson looks having been made to look weak and ineffectual in getting his deal through, and also watch how the Tories fend off the BXT Party armed with a massive cudgel to beat Johnson with having gone for May Deal MkII.

I’m a conspiracy theorist... I believe Johnson knows this won’t get through... he knows Farage will play to the Brexit gallery as usual and between them they’ve agreed to play it out this way so we get a GE... the leave vote will be split between bxt and Tory but these two bellends will already have agreed to come together to form a coalition and then leave with no deal... Farage gets his hard Brexit and Boris gets his paymasters a huge payday

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

It was around 9 months, can't be bothered checking exactly, but honestly the problem wasn't that they waited too long - it's that they didn't wait long enough.

By triggering A50 early, we gave the EU all the cards, because we hadn't determined ourselves what we wanted.

You know the discussions we're having now, about how to leave? This should have all been done in the HoC long before A50 was triggered.

The sole reason we did it was political. Farage wanted it done the day after the referendum and just leave on no deal - that's the madness that forced the Tories hand.

This is exactly why such a dogs bollocks has been made of the whole thing.

 

[edge]

Similar things have happened many times through history. Not that exact scenario sure but similar battles between executive and parliament. Callaghan with the Winter of Discontent leading to the rise of Thatcher; a GE called due to a no confidence motion after months of political turmoil etc.

That said, I disagree with what Goat says of course - a referendum would be pointless if we just re-ran every single one all the time. It's what distinguishes it from a GE.

The problem with the 2016 referendum is one of clarity. The Scottish referendum had the advantage of the status quo winning, so looked cleaner, but in reality if Scotland had voted to leave they would have had extremely similar challenges to deal with - or worse really as they'd have had to leave the UK then re-join the EU. Instead, the 2016 referendum resulted in a request for monumental change and, critically, that change wasn't clarified in terms of procedure by those pushing for it.

Nobody, hand on heart, can say now, in 2019, that they knew what leave meant. And I include everyone in that, not just 'leavers'. So that's the problem we have - any decision now isn't really 'the will of the people' - it's a guess; "whatever we can get across the line."

I don't think that's the best way to make a decision that will fundamentally alter a country.

Put it back to the people, get informed consent - if the country really is suicidal and wants out on no deal or by splitting off Northern Ireland, then so be it, but let's confirm that totally rather than have decades of crap over this.

Because that's the part people are missing - this may get over the line with a crap deal, or it may be revoked, but either way it'd murder this country for decades unless there is a democratically decisive outcome. Brexit doesn't end this.

It will course murder whatever way it pans out , it's been handled in scandalous manner.
To be honest I think a second referendum would course murder what goes on it?
This deal or no deal
This deal or stay
Stay anyway whichever way you vote according to the libs
if it comes out stay wins this one the leavers start kicking up.
Every time the EU do something like expand act they will say you didn't tell you this when you voted to stay and on it goes.
If its leave we have wasted 3 years and the trust in government and the establishment is shot to bits in the meantime.
Sooner have a GE and clear the air one way or the other, let's face it quite a few of the current MPs will not be there next year after the voters have there say.
Ex Tories/labour act and people from both wings of the argument having to go back to leave or remain there constituency to be judged on there actions.
The parties are pretty much lined up stay or remain anyway .

 

[edge]

I’m a conspiracy theorist... I believe Johnson knows this won’t get through... he knows Farage will play to the Brexit gallery as usual and between them they’ve agreed to play it out this way so we get a GE... the leave vote will be split between bxt and Tory but these two bellends will already have agreed to come together to form a coalition and then leave with no deal... Farage gets his hard Brexit and Boris gets his paymasters a huge payday

Said this the other day this is how this could play out.

 

[davek]

I’m a conspiracy theorist... I believe Johnson knows this won’t get through... he knows Farage will play to the Brexit gallery as usual and between them they’ve agreed to play it out this way so we get a GE... the leave vote will be split between bxt and Tory but these two bellends will already have agreed to come together to form a coalition and then leave with no deal... Farage gets his hard Brexit and Boris gets his paymasters a huge payday

The flaw in that is that the Leave vote isn't as big as the Remain vote; and the forces opposing a no deal brexit are capable of forming non-aggression pacts themselves.

 

[Kurt.]

The flaw in that is that the Leave vote isn't as big as the Remain vote; and the forces opposing a no deal brexit are capable of forming non-aggression pacts themselves.

Let’s hope so

 

[edge]

The flaw in that is that the Leave vote isn't as big as the Remain vote; and the forces opposing a no deal brexit are capable of forming non-aggression pacts themselves.

If the leave vote wasn't as big how come they won the referendum?
They did quite we out of the euro elections as well

 

[davek]

If the leave vote wasn't as big how come they won the referendum?

Basically, that was then and this is now.

A poll of polls for the last 226 taken testing the Leave / Remain division has Remain ahead in 204 of them.

 

[edge]

Basically, that was then and this is now.

A poll of polls for the last 226 taken testing the Leave / Remain division has Remain ahead in 204 of them.

Same as the night before the referendum , it's not fashionable to be a leave voter in public
,but in the ballot box when it comes to casting your vote they have shown they come out in numbers time and again.
Underestimate them and let's see how it pans out.
Labour have as much to fear from the Brexit party as the Tories and that's before the press get to work.
Labour put that second referendum up as party policy they will be hammered mark my words and that's from somebody who is voting for them.

 

[Kurt.]

Same as the night before the referendum , it's not fashionable to be a leave voter in public
,but in the ballot box when it comes to casting your vote they have shown they come out in numbers time and again.
Underestimate them and let's see how it pans out.
Labour have as much to fear from the Brexit party as the Tories and that's before the press get to work.
Labour put that second referendum up as party policy they will be hammered mark my words and that's from somebody who is voting for them.

My one massive hope is the fact that around 42 million people didn’t vote for leave. I understand around 26 odd million of them didn’t vote at the time but faced with what’s happened over the past 3 years they can’t fail to have a view now...and that doesn’t take into account the youngsters eligible to vote now who weren’t at the time. Big if’s and buts I know .

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Good summary of where the hell we are with things on Sky News:

Sky News: Brexit: It is very unlikely that the PM will get his way today - here's why http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-a-delay-could-get-boris-johnson-the-election-he-craves-11840965

 

[orchard]

It will course murder whatever way it pans out , it's been handled in scandalous manner.
To be honest I think a second referendum would course murder what goes on it?
This deal or no deal
This deal or stay
Stay anyway whichever way you vote according to the libs
if it comes out stay wins this one the leavers start kicking up.
Every time the EU do something like expand act they will say you didn't tell you this when you voted to stay and on it goes.
If its leave we have wasted 3 years and the trust in government and the establishment is shot to bits in the meantime.
Sooner have a GE and clear the air one way or the other, let's face it quite a few of the current MPs will not be there next year after the voters have there say.
Ex Tories/labour act and people from both wings of the argument having to go back to leave or remain there constituency to be judged on there actions.
The parties are pretty much lined up stay or remain anyway .

All he needs to do is guarantee that our environment/worker/ag. standards will not fall below the eu's...