Current Affairs EU In or Out

[ilikecheese]

You lost get to over it!
Accept the democratic decision in a massive turn out!

Lol...a few porkies are all good when the result goes your way.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Lol...a few porkies are all good when the result goes your way.

And they leave a bitter taste when it doesn't. Of course, the porkies from the other side don't count, do they...???

 

[Joey66]

1.5 million votes went the OUT way!

 

[Anders_Limpar]

Anders,
I respect you views, and also appreciate the cogent way you have expressed them in your post #6327.

I wouldn't say I was a 'passionate advocate' of Leave, rather just someone who weighed up things as they stand, considered the original entry terms (I was in my twenties when the vote to join was taken in the 1970s), and arrived at a decision at to which way to vote.

As for economic predictions, I have yet to see an economic prediction by one of the big-wig talking heads of the economic institutions actually turning out to be correct. Here's a beaut of a quote from one of the leaflets that dropped through my door during the Referendum run-in: "If Britain were to leave Europe our economy would go into recession. That would inevitably put people's pensions at risk" - Ros Altmann, Pensions Expert. That's on the front cover of the leaflet. How many people read that and thought 'shee-it, I better vote remain? Here's another: "UK businesses can create more jobs in Europe than out on their own" - Karren Brady (17th Jan 2016). Really Karen? What is that based upon? You see, again, an assertion without any grounding in fact. I'm not a cynic, I'm a hard-nosed realist. It's what I had to be in my day job for over 30 years, and in the other main venture I have been involved in over a long period of time.

In all honesty, Anders, lies and xenophobia were used by BOTH SIDES in equal measure I would say. This from Cameron's leaflet to every house in Britain, at the cost of £9 million+: The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU (the two bold words are in the pamphlet). That is a load of tosh. We are one of 28, with no special voting rights whatsoever. We no longer have any kind of veto. Cameron used that pamphlet to swing the vote the way he wanted it to go. Did he provide £9 million+ to the other side in order to be fair? No! He used his position to gain what can only be seen as an unfair advantage. And he STILL came second in a two-horse race!

I used the term 'not suckered into it' as I believe that most right-thinking people would make their own minds up. One might argue the opposite that a great many people were 'suckered' into voting to remain because of the scare-mongering tactics of the 'Remain' side. And taking your point regarding 750,000, one could therefore extrapolate that perhaps 750,000 more could have voted to leave had they not been swayed by the scares issued by economists, Osborn and the like. It cuts both ways; it is a two-way street. Suckers were on both sides, ultimately, but both you and I have no way of doing a 'head count'.

People my age, with the benefit of having lived through many decades, did not take the decision to vote the way they did lightly. I can say that only for those I have spoken to. The genuine belief is that the way forward is without being part of the EU, having seen how its control over our life extended by what might be term 'stealth' over the decades. It is FOR you and your children (and for that matter my two children in their thirties, and my two grandchildren) that I/we arrived at the decision on which way to vote for the future of the UK.

In the final analysis I think both you and I, and others, hope the future pans out well. It will not be perfect, but then things have never been perfect.

It is to the credit of the Mods that this thread has now run to 422 pages, and allowed the views from right across the spectrum to be aired.

Fair enough - it's a difficult one really as you seem very nice and your arguments are clearly well thought through...

I guess though if you fundamentally don't believe economic experts (and I certainly know I'm not one)- then there is very little point discussing economics.

Also if you think the two examples picked on there are the same as categorically saying that X amount of millions would be spent on the NHS (when the people offering the promise didn't actually hold any government) then again - there's no point in discussing that. In fact both of the points above could still actually be argued to be true. Are we heading for a recession (looks like it!) and would this affect pensions (obviously). As for the Brady quote (aside from the fact she is a monumental arse) - isn't that clearly someone in business' opinion and was put across as opinion? Don't you see the slight difference in that compared with driving a huge bus around with invented figures on the side? I would have thought that for someone who seems to demand (as one should) assertions based on fact - it seems odd to me that you are happy to sweep the 350million figure under the carpet.

I also think it's nonsense to say there was equal amounts of xenophobia on the remain campaign (was there any?)...

Anyway the time for these arguments was over a month ago.

It is interesting though that you have brought age into it, without being disrespectful I can hazard a decent guess to yours (you mention being 20 in the 70's)- I'm in my early 30's... Not sure how much age and life experiences has played a part. I spent 3 years living over in Italy in my 20's - I've still got friends over there now, working for UK universities research teams (although looks like most, if not all of funding has now been pulled)... I guess the idea of not having freedom of movement across the EU genuinely saddens me - as I think this is probably the logical conclusion to all this (if some get their way).

 

[ilikecheese]

And they leave a bitter taste when it doesn't. Of course, the porkies from the other side don't count, do they...???

40% of Leave voters believed this lie.

That's 7,000,000 voters. Just because the Leave camp was better at telling lies doesn't make the result the right one.

 

[Old Blue 2]

40% of Leave voters believed this lie.

That's 7,000,000 voters. Just because the Leave camp was better at telling lies doesn't make the result the right one.

From where do you get your 40%? From the 17.5 million who voted to leave? I wasn't polled about this. Is this another figure made up to support a contention.

The £350 million figure is correct. What is not shown is the rebate, which goes to certain parts of 'industry' in the UK. This rebate reduces the overall amount which falls into the EU coffers.

The message is let's not give that amount to the EU, let us plough it into services in the UK instead.

Let's talk Osborn's emergency budget, which was going to slaughter the ordinary people on his say-so, eh? Nah, silence from all of the 'Remainers' on that one. We had an out-and-out LIAR as Chancellor. And also silence from the 'Remainers' on the scare-mongering as well. That's why you, and the others who peddle the line you take, are not worth taking seriously. At least Anders is putting up cogent points, and debating them reasonably, unlike most others.

 

[peteblue]

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has said the UK's decision to leave the European Union has "thrown a spanner in the works" of its global growth forecast.

Instead of predicting 3.2% growth in 2016, the IMF's World Economic Outlook (WEO) now expects only 3.1%.

It says the UK will be the worst affected of all the advanced economies.

Its 2017 UK growth forecast has been slashed from 2.2% to 1.3% and this year's has been cut from 1.9% to 1.7%.

The IMF's global growth forecast for 2017 has also been revised down from 3.5% to 3.4%.

Before the referendum vote on 23 June, the IMF says that the global economy had been showing promising signs of growth.

(BBC tonight) - Not sure why they would make it up.

After saying that leaving the European Union could trigger a UK recession, the International Monetary Fund now expects the British economy to grow by 1.7 per cent this year and 1.3 per cent next year.

That is weaker than the 1.9 and 2.2 per cent growth forecasts before the referendum, but the UK is still set to be the second-fastest growing economy in the Group of Seven industrialised nations this year – behind the United States – and third-fastest next year, behind the US and Canada......

Adam Tyler, chief executive of the National Association of Commercial Finance Brokers, said: 'This latest report from the Bank of England will provide considerable encouragement to the UK business community.

'The findings are certainly consistent with what we are seeing on the ground, namely that most businesses are carrying on more or less as normal.

'Businesses are monitoring events closely, especially news surrounding future trading relations, but the corporate paralysis some suggested has simply not materialised.'


The British economy showed no signs of slowing down after Brexit, according to a Bank of England report.

A monthly survey by the institution's agents – who are considered to be its eyes and ears on the ground observing the British economy – found that most companies were continuing with business as usual.

The study flies in the face of the dire warnings issued by Remain campaigners in the run-up to the vote, when there were widespread predictions the nation would suffer a devastating economic blow.

The Bank's agents found that there had been a marked rise in business uncertainty but most companies did not expect their investment or hiring plans to take a hit.

 

[ilikecheese]

From where do you get your 40%? From the 17.5 million who voted to leave? I wasn't polled about this. Is this another figure made up to support a contention.

The £350 million figure is correct. What is not shown is the rebate, which goes to certain parts of 'industry' in the UK. This rebate reduces the overall amount which falls into the EU coffers.

The message is let's not give that amount to the EU, let us plough it into services in the UK instead.

Let's talk Osborn's emergency budget, which was going to slaughter the ordinary people on his say-so, eh? Nah, silence from all of the 'Remainers' on that one. We had an out-and-out LIAR as Chancellor. And also silence from the 'Remainers' on the scare-mongering as well. That's why you, and the others who peddle the line you take, are not worth taking seriously. At least Anders is putting up cogent points, and debating them reasonably, unlike most others.

That 40% figure was from a poll that the Guardian did two weeks after the election which I posted in this thread ~12 hours ago.

Surely you would recognize that you don't personally have to be asked for a poll of a group of people to be an accurate (+/- a few percentage points) representation of the whole?

It was a clear and blatant lie that was sold well that bus. Your camp was better at telling lies and speaking to the everyman...just like Trump is doing in the states.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

After saying that leaving the European Union could trigger a UK recession, the International Monetary Fund now expects the British economy to grow by 1.7 per cent this year and 1.3 per cent next year.

That is weaker than the 1.9 and 2.2 per cent growth forecasts before the referendum, but the UK is still set to be the second-fastest growing economy in the Group of Seven industrialised nations this year – behind the United States – and third-fastest next year, behind the US and Canada......

Adam Tyler, chief executive of the National Association of Commercial Finance Brokers, said: 'This latest report from the Bank of England will provide considerable encouragement to the UK business community.

'The findings are certainly consistent with what we are seeing on the ground, namely that most businesses are carrying on more or less as normal.

'Businesses are monitoring events closely, especially news surrounding future trading relations, but the corporate paralysis some suggested has simply not materialised.'

The British economy showed no signs of slowing down after Brexit, according to a Bank of England report.

A monthly survey by the institution's agents – who are considered to be its eyes and ears on the ground observing the British economy – found that most companies were continuing with business as usual.

The study flies in the face of the dire warnings issued by Remain campaigners in the run-up to the vote, when there were widespread predictions the nation would suffer a devastating economic blow.

The Bank's agents found that there had been a marked rise in business uncertainty but most companies did not expect their investment or hiring plans to take a hit.

hmmm... Where did you get this from please?

 

[Old Blue 2]

Anders,
No, I don't believe the economic experts. I've never known so many people of their ilk to spout such verbal garbage in my life (and I heard a hell of a lot in the Government Department I worked in!).

Yes, I agree, Brady has a monumental arse! Sorry, IS a monumental arse!!!

I have no problem with people working out how old I am. I lived through the post-war depression of the 1950s, seeing bombsites all over the place living in Kirkdale, which was close enough to the docks to get its fair share of misplaced bombs during the war, particularly the May Blitz of 1941. I lived through the '60s when there was real hope; through the '70s and the power cuts and three-day weeks and strikes aplenty; through the '80s and '90s, when there were three million unemployed and an interest rate of 15% under Thatcher (bringing up a young family in those Thatcher years). Yeah, I've seen some serious merde go down over the decades. That's why I don't perceive leaving the EU as the Horror Comic that some would have us believe.

Freedom of movement across the EU doesn't bother me. It might bother a small elite core of people, but is that really going to affect the lives of most UK citizens. We ordinary people will still get in and out of Europe - no big deal. The biggest deal for me with regard to going across borders was getting through the old West-East Germany and back border checkpoints in the 1980s.

As for the bus, I'm not sweeping it under the carpet. See my previous reply - I won't replicate it here.

As for this in your reply: "I also think it's nonsense to say there was equal amounts of xenophobia on the remain campaign (was there any?)...". The nature of the point put forward by the Remain campaign pandered to the xenophobia of the nation. I mentioned Cameron's panphlet in which it is stated that we have a 'special status' within the EU. Aren't we great, aren't we wonderful to have this. Panders to the xenophobic nature of people. See it for what it is.

And given my age, I can say as a FACT, I was in the scoreboard end at Wembley in 1966 and can STILL picture Temple going through on Springett in that final and shouting 'SCORE, SCORE, SCORE' along with thousands of others, and when he did, that Everton end erupted like I have never seen, or been in, since! Now THAT was something else!!!

 

[Old Blue 2]

That 40% figure was from a poll that the Guardian did two weeks after the election which I posted in this thread ~12 hours ago.

Surely you would recognize that you don't personally have to be asked for a poll of a group of people to be an accurate (+/- a few percentage points) representation of the whole?

It was a clear and blatant lie that was sold well that bus. Your camp was better at telling lies and speaking to the everyman...just like Trump is doing in the states.

Let's not get into the validity of the poll sample, eh? And that poll is an accurate representation of the whole? REALLY? The same as the polls that predicted a narrow 'Remain' win? Tell me you are taking the piss...

Both camps told llies. Get over it (as the Eagles sang!).

 

[Anders_Limpar]

The £350 million figure is correct. What is not shown is the rebate, which goes to certain parts of 'industry' in the UK. This rebate reduces the overall amount which falls into the EU coffers.

Sorry it's not correct - It's more like 250 million before the rebate (but what's 100 million between friends)...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...23/does-the-eu-really-cost-the-uk-350m-a-week

 

[ilikecheese]

Let's not get into the validity of the poll sample, eh? And that poll is an accurate representation of the whole? REALLY? The same as the polls that predicted a narrow 'Remain' win? Tell me you are taking the piss...

Both camps told llies. Get over it (as the Eagles sang!).

Yes, both sides told lies...your side told more convincing, easier to digest lies.

Let's say that poll was off 10%. That would still mean over 5 million voters believed that bus and voted to leave, at least in part, because of it.

Anyway, you are happy with the decision regardless of how it was achieved. Good luck to you and your family.

 

[Toffeelover]

That's a bit of a strange interpretation of what the IMF has said. They're forecasting that Britain will have a worse economic slowdown than Nigeria next year. The fact that they're forecast to be slightly above France and Germany (by 0.1pc) is not a good thing. It's a 0.9pc decrease in the forecast since before the referendum.

Just shows though mate, who does one believe and are economists at all reliable. Tell you what would not ask any of them to try and back a winner for the Grand National.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

As for this in your reply: "I also think it's nonsense to say there was equal amounts of xenophobia on the remain campaign (was there any?)...". The nature of the point put forward by the Remain campaign pandered to the xenophobia of the nation. I mentioned Cameron's panphlet in which it is stated that we have a 'special status' within the EU. Aren't we great, aren't we wonderful to have this. Panders to the xenophobic nature of people. See it for what it is.

Wow - you are equating that with Johnson calling Obama’s intervention down to his “part-Kenyan ancestral dislike of the British empire” and Farages god awful poster and the simple fact that the dialogs they created has helped justify racism to countless idiots across the county... That is just utter nonsense. I'm struggling to see how the leaflet in question could possibly be seen as xenophobic - although I think the point you are making is that it's not xenophobic just that xenophobic's themselves would find it xenophobic?... Come on...

Genuinely flabergasted at that. If you're so confident on what you've voted for surly you can just say 'yes there was a lot of racism in the vote leave leave camp - but that's not why I voted and it's ridiculous'... Not just saying oh vote remain was just as xenophobic (which is quite frankly preposterous).