Current Affairs EU In or Out

[davek]

he didn't even vote, and was harping on about bins and unburied dead ( those bloody unions) which rattled my cage , if you want to take notice of him fine to me he offers nothing better than the fella in the local paper shop in my opinion , sick of celebrity people telling me what they presume others think or know.
Why are leave voters only looking to the past , surely a future free from the EU is looking forward different, not backward to something they have lived through the last 40 or so years, and for whatever reason they want to change, maybe they haven't seen any benefits of the globalisation you speak off, that might be the root of the problem?

It stands to reason that, by and large, the major motivation in voting Leave was to "re-claim" national soverignty (as if that's going to be the case outside Europe, btw), as the economic arguments for a brighter future outside of the country's main trading bloc is for the birds. People haven't voted with their material best interests in mind here, they voted for some abstract 'prize' of independence.

It was a nationalistic reflex. Some have never stopped believing in British exceptionalism and that Britain was uneasily grafted on to the EU - which they equate with incoming foreigners and an overbearing, over-powerful Brussels and Strasbourg. The Mail and the Express have been priming the population for decades on that diet. It's little wonder that once Cameron gave it a chance of happening that Brexit took place.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Emily Thornberry: 'Boris Johnson is following Donald Trump's 'strong man' playbook. It's so dangerous'

After two years opposite “arrogant and lazy” Boris Johnson at the despatch box, Emily Thornberry is a practiced ‘girly swot&rsquo...

www.politicshome.com

Thornberry comparing the LibDems to the Taliban. We've jumped the shark now.

Rather clumsy statement that.

Edit: Thornberry not you.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Supreme court hears masterly prorogation defence: don't sweat it | John Crace

Lord Keen’s experience with honest criminals proves poor training for working with narcissists and sociopaths

www.theguardian.com

@peteblue pretty decent summary that.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Rather clumsy statement that.

Edit: Thornberry not you.

She's making a habit of clumsy statements recently, what with her strange attempt at describing Labour's Brexit strategy on QT the other week.

 

[Jebus_lives]

She's making a habit of clumsy statements recently, what with her strange attempt at describing Labour's Brexit strategy on QT the other week.

Yes she is, although I think that suffered from conflating Labour's position with that of her own. She talked about what the Labour strategy would be, then was asked about what she would do.

Its inconsistent, but it's not ridiculous.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes she is, although I think that suffered from conflating Labour's position with that of her own. She talked about what the Labour strategy would be, then was asked about what she would do.

Its inconsistent, but it's not ridiculous.

Aye, to be fair to her, that has transpired to be Labour's strategy. It's quite possible that we could end up (in that scenario) with Labour negotiating some kind of withdrawal agreement, putting it to a referendum and having the Brexit Party/Tories campaigning against it on one side, the Lib Dems on the other, and it being rather unloved in the middle. I can't really understand why they wouldn't champion their own deal in a referendum. I mean presumably they would think it the best on offer, so why not back it?

 

[Jebus_lives]

Aye, to be fair to her, that has transpired to be Labour's strategy. It's quite possible that we could end up (in that scenario) with Labour negotiating some kind of withdrawal agreement, putting it to a referendum and having the Brexit Party/Tories campaigning against it on one side, the Lib Dems on the other, and it being rather unloved in the middle. I can't really understand why they wouldn't champion their own deal in a referendum. I mean presumably they would think it the best on offer, so why not back it?

I think the principle being that no matter how good a deal they might get, and I am incredibly sceptical that they would get anything greatly advanced from May's WA, it is still not a better position than Remain, however, it acknowledges that people voted to leave, so that is the Parliamentary definition of leave.

Remain - no change
Corbyns Deal - respects the referendum but defines leave and attempts to safeguard jobs and some standards
No Deal - a vote for complete unknown.

So while those who voted own have a 'credible' offer to choose, Labour would back remain as they think it is the best of the 3 options. Corbyn stalls neutral so he is not accused of favouring one side over the other.*

*At least I think that's the logic.

 

[edge]

It stands to reason that, by and large, the major motivation in voting Leave was to "re-claim" national soverignty (as if that's going to be the case outside Europe, btw), as the economic arguments for a brighter future outside of the country's main trading bloc is for the birds. People haven't voted with their material best interests in mind here, they voted for some abstract 'prize' of independence.

It was a nationalistic reflex. Some have never stopped believing in British exceptionalism and that Britain was uneasily grafted on to the EU - which they equate with incoming foreigners and an overbearing, over-powerful Brussels and Strasbourg. The Mail and the Express have been priming the population for decades on that diet. It's little wonder that once Cameron gave it a chance of happening that Brexit took place.

some people will think that way Davek, but if they feel like the have no place at the table who can blame them for overturning it the first chance they have , poverty cap has grown, steady jobs rare as hens teeth, minimum wage Housing ect I know your an intelligent guy so don't have to go on.
on what scale can you tell them the EU has been good for them(I know the EU isn't directly to blame for all of that) if there is a case why wasn't it made, that's not there fault i9f it wasn't put across or believed.

 

[Jebus_lives]

some people will think that way Davek, but if they feel like the have no place at the table who can blame them for overturning it the first chance they have , poverty cap has grown, steady jobs rare as hens teeth, minimum wage Housing ect I know your an intelligent guy so don't have to go on.
on what scale can you tell them the EU has been good for them(I know the EU isn't directly to blame for all of that) if there is a case why wasn't it made, that's not there fault i9f it wasn't put across or believed.

I think largely, as has started to come to light, people were completely unaware of the role and function of the EU. Politicians and media alike.

If those groups don't communicate effectively, and didn't fully understand the implications, how do the expect the average Northern voter to make an informed decision.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think the principle being that no matter how good a deal they might get, and I am incredibly sceptical that they would get anything greatly advanced from May's WA, it is still not a better position than Remain, however, it acknowledges that people voted to leave, so that is the Parliamentary definition of leave.

Remain - no change
Corbyns Deal - respects the referendum but defines leave and attempts to safeguard jobs and some standards
No Deal - a vote for complete unknown.

So while those who voted own have a 'credible' offer to choose, Labour would back remain as they think it is the best of the 3 options. Corbyn stalls neutral so he is not accused of favouring one side over the other.*

*At least I think that's the logic.

Is there a distinction between Corbyn and Labour in this strategy? I understood that the government wouldn't campaign either way, which would mean Labour as an entire party. If it's just Corbyn sitting it out but McDonnell, Watson and the rest of the (as then) cabinet campaigning, that's a bit odd isn't it?

 

[Khalekan]

Yes she is, although I think that suffered from conflating Labour's position with that of her own. She talked about what the Labour strategy would be, then was asked about what she would do.

Its inconsistent, but it's not ridiculous.

Far from it.

It is is predicated on the view that our current arrangement within the EU is way better than any deal we will have outside it.

But they will honour the Referendum result by brokering the best deal they can and putting that the the country in competition with Remain.

What they need to do is come right out and say that....instead of tip toeing around it and appearing to be, as you say, “inconsistent”.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Is there a distinction between Corbyn and Labour in this strategy? I understood that the government wouldn't campaign either way, which would mean Labour as an entire party. If it's just Corbyn sitting it out but McDonnell, Watson and the rest of the (as then) cabinet campaigning, that's a bit odd isn't it?

I don't think it's that odd. The Labour party endeavor to get the best deal, but they're all free to campaign in any direction they see fit.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Far from it.

It is is predicated on the view that our current arrangement within the EU is way better than any deal we will have outside it.

But they will honour the Referendum result by brokering the best deal they can and putting that the the country in competition with Remain.

What they need to do is come right out and say that....instead of tip toeing around it and appearing to be, as you say, “inconsistent”.

I didn't mean Labour were inconsistent, I meant that Thornberry's personal stance was inconsistent with Labour's strategy, but that's not, in this instance an inherently bad thing.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I don't think it's that odd. The Labour party endeavor to get the best deal, but they're all free to campaign in any direction they see fit.

It's pretty odd. Given the reaction to May's withdrawal bill in parliament, can you really see a Labour withdrawal bill passing when they're pledging not to even back it in any upcoming confirmatory referendum? I'd say the chances of that are practically zero.

 

[dwightschrute]

It's pretty odd. Given the reaction to May's withdrawal bill in parliament, can you really see a Labour withdrawal bill passing when they're pledging not to even back it in any upcoming confirmatory referendum? I'd say the chances of that are practically zero.

Wouldn't this hypothetical scenario technically be a win for Lib Dems? Grind it down until its a deal vs remain option with the deal having no chance of passing parliament = remain in the EU
As opposed to going straight for the revoke article 50 approach which has less than practically zero chance of happening