Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Siemens already trades with the rest of the world. I would be interested to know when, and how, the EU commissioners have interfered with Siemens trading with the rest of the world, as this could have a bearing on their investment in Hull.

Siemens have said they will review their investment in Hull in 2017 and it will depend how trade talks between the UK and the EU goes.

As you say, decisions on future operations will be delayed as long as they practically can whilst the trade talks between UK and the EU go on. This will be the case for many multinational companies with significant UK operations reducing economic growth of the economy as a whole.

It has been mentioned above that brokering trade deals with the EU is very hard as you have to agree with all the members.

The Bulgarian foreign ministry Monday repeated an earlier threat to veto an EU-Canada free trade pact when it comes up for national ratification unless Canada drops visa requirements for Bulgarian nationals. "We consider the conclusion of [the deal] and achievement of full visa reciprocity as a whole process", it said Monday after Bulgaria's deputy foreign minister met with Canada's immigration minister in Brussels in talks organised by the European Commission.

I agree with this and find it a drawback too, a valid argument for the leave side. However, we now have to strike a deal with the EU, I can see this taking some time considering the nature of our exit, the concessions the EU will likely request and as mentioned earlier, the need to keep all members happy.

Looks to be a monumental task and the clock is very much ticking already.
 
As you say, decisions on future operations will be delayed as long as they practically can whilst the trade talks between UK and the EU go on. This will be the case for many multinational companies with significant UK operations reducing economic growth of the economy as a whole.

It has been mentioned above that brokering trade deals with the EU is very hard as you have to agree with all the members.



I agree with this and find it a drawback too, a valid argument for the leave side. However, we now have to strike a deal with the EU, I can see this taking some time considering the nature of our exit, the concessions the EU will likely request and as mentioned earlier, the need to keep all members happy.

Looks to be a monumental task and the clock is very much ticking already.

Our exit is done by majority vote I believe.......
 
Our exit is done by majority vote I believe.......

Think you are right there in regards to the exit in terms of dividing assets, setting out rights of UK citizens in Europe etc. But wouldn't any future EU trade agreement require the approval of all members?
 
Think you are right there in regards to the exit in terms of dividing assets, setting out rights of UK citizens in Europe etc. But wouldn't any future EU trade agreement require the approval of all members?

Possibly, if we leave then negotiate, but my guess is that Germany will keep it within the realms of majority vote as they are most on the hook to get a deal done........
 
Exports will depend on demand in the world economy and considering that there is a downturn in the world economy with this reflected in UK exports to non EU countries down £2.4 billion this past year. Exports to the EU have stayed the same this year.

Anthony Hilton: What do we have to sell following the Brexit vote?

"Theresa May, our shortly-to-be-anointed Prime Minister, has said that Brexit means Brexit, which presumably means we will leave the European single market at some point in the not-too-distant future. This implies departure whether or not we secure a deal that will allow us to keep at least some of our current benefits.

It will put significantly greater emphasis on our trade with the rest of the world. Indeed, a major reason advanced for leaving the EU was that it would leave us free to negotiate trade deals with the countries of Asia, Africa and South America that, although significantly poorer than the EU, have the advantage of growing faster. Nevertheless, we trade more with Ireland than with India and China combined, so abandoning one and gambling on the other is not something which will be easy to achieve without pain.

The first question to ask is what do we have to sell? What does the UK produce that the rest of the world wants? And what will it want in return?

We need to face up to an uncomfortable truth. The UK is not a great manufacturer.

It has some great manufacturing companies, but not enough of them. Manufacturing is only about 12% of the economy, and only a handful of companies within that are good enough to export.

Management consultants McKinsey did a study of UK manufacturing a few years ago in which it divided businesses into five categories that ranked them on their international competitiveness and ability to export down to their lack of anything special and consequent vulnerability to foreign competition.

Top of the list came innovative producers with a genuine competitive edge — firms such as Rolls-Royce and the pharmaceutical industry. The second category was for strongly branded producers with strong British links, which would be lost if manufacturing was moved overseas. Jaguar Land Rover is an obvious example.

Third were locational producers — firms that have to be close to their supply of raw materials or their market. Food processors are one example. A frozen-pea plant has to be close to farms where peas are grown; sugar refiners cluster in East Anglia, near where the beet is grown.

The fourth category was what McKinsey called exposed producers — companies that use technology and labour but don’t have much flair. These are OK at what they do but nothing special, and are clearly vulnerable. In this category, the bankruptcy of much of British steel and the struggles of Tata show the shape of things to come. Finally, there is a fifth category of cost-based producers that have no edge other than being cheaper than anyone else.

The challenge is not that manufacturing is small in relation to the economy as a whole because it is roughly the same proportion as in France or the US and less than Germany — reflecting the fact that as economies mature, they become more services-oriented. Rather the problem is that we have too few internationally competitive companies.

McKinsey estimated that only 9% and 5% respectively or our manufacturing employment is in the top two categories, and a further 22% is here for locational reasons. So 64% of our manufacturing jobs are clearly vulnerable to cheaper producers.

Three things flow from this. Any trade deal opens us to competition just as we hope to get free access to their markets. So any such deal is likely to take a heavy toll on the two thirds of British manufacturing that is uncompetitive — suggesting that leading Brexit economist Patrick Minford was close to the mark when he said before the vote that he expected manufacturing and agriculture to disappear once we left the EU.

Second, even if our leading sectors double their exports — which is asking a lot — it will not be enough to sort out the balance of payments deficit. Third — like it or not — services are what we are good at, and trade deals almost never do anything for services.

Nor is the manufacturing sector likely to grow enough to fill the gap because we are no longer that kind of economy. Successive governments since Margaret Thatcher have neglected those things that would make a difference. Our labour productivity per hour is one of the worst among developed nations and 17% behind France, reflecting years of under investment. Our school leavers are 28th in international league tables of mathematical attainment, reflecting years of substandard education for much of the population.

The World Economic Forum ranks us 33rd in the quality of infrastructure — relied upon by manufacturers as well as Southern Rail commuters — reflecting misguided government priorities and excessive reliance on private-sector funding for national needs. And British management, though it pays itself as if it is the best in the world, ranks poorly according to academic studies of the skills needed in a manufacturing environment.

There are things we are good at, but Brexit actively damages these. Financial services will suffer from the loss of the single market, and so will tourism. Currently, 60% of jobs in the London tourism and hospitality industry and almost 30% nationally are filled by non-British labour, which Brexiteers want to exclude. So service levels will dive.

Health, another major London business, is similarly reliant on non-British employees while higher education takes a double hit. It recruits internationally and much of its research funding is international, and therefore liable to be cut while immigration curbs will limit the ability to recruit foreign undergraduates. About 100,000 students from China currently spend an average of £20,000 a head on tuition fees in this country. That alone is £2 billion a year. But they can’t study here if we don’t let them in.

Finally, technology is heavily dependent on non-British labour —indeed, the mix of cultures helps make it innovative, creative and dynamic. Again immigration curbs can only do harm.

Being a successful trading nation is not about having trade deals, it is about having something to sell.

Successful countries know what they are good at, and work out what structures best play to these strengths. Perhaps we should work out what these things are first, then decide what to do".
 
Yep, and when Merkel say's jump, the EU asks how high.

Speaking of Merkel, she seems to have made it pretty clear that the UK can't have access to the single market without freedom of movement.

Would you accept freedom of movement for this access or is that a no go?
 
Speaking of Merkel, she seems to have made it pretty clear that the UK can't have access to the single market without freedom of movement.

Would you accept freedom of movement for this access or is that a no go?

At least we won't have any more schengen queues at airports.
 
Top of the list came innovative producers with a genuine competitive edge — firms such as Rolls-Royce and the pharmaceutical industry. The second category was for strongly branded producers with strong British links, which would be lost if manufacturing was moved overseas. Jaguar Land Rover is an obvious example.

Interesting you mention Jaguar Land Rover. Here is an article suggesting Jaguar Land Rover's own forecasts show a potential £1 billion reduction in pre tax profit by 2020 should the UK end up trading under WTO rules.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...1bn-drop-jaguar-land-rover-profit-sources-say

Securing access to the free market is an absolute must.

Definitely highlights the importance of securing access to the single market. Good luck to Theresa May getting it and not having to make concessions on freedom of movement.
 
Free movement is one of the core principles of the Eu the uk cannot expect to be treated. Any different. From the other. Member states To have access. To the single market
 
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Oh for sure, but I wonder if that isn't always going to be the case to an extent. For the record, I'm not talking specifically about British workers here so much the lowly skilled. Globalisation has proved a real challenge for such folks, whether it's migrants coming in or jobs going out. Automation has already affected low-skilled work, and is likely to do so even more in the next decade or so, with jobs like driving and building automated (alongside many skilled jobs too it should be said).

Maybe the genie will be able to be put back into the bottle, but I'm inclined to think that there will always be someone or something that is going to provide you with a real challenge for your job, especially if you don't have much in the way of marketable skills to bring to bare.

I get fully that this is tough, especially for those raised on the job for life myth, and the education system isn't equipped yet to tailor for this constant re-skilling. Some advocate things like a universal income, both to buffer the impact and also provide some breathing space to do that re-training. I'm not sure that's the answer, but I'm equally not sure leaving the EU will be either.

I mean fruit pickers are a regular source of opprobrium, but even if we prevent farmers from hiring EU migrants to do that job, some Cambridge researchers have already built a robot that can do it just as well. As soon as such a thing becomes cost-effective, what then?

Similar devices are being developed in professions from driving to cooking, bricklaying to store work. What will these folks blame in 5/10 years time when their situation isn't any better?
You have hit the nail on the head. The world is changing and if it's not globalization then it's going to be automation. It's pretty clear that the economy is going to need less and less unskilled labour in the short term which is why importing more and more unskilled labour is folly.

Eventually and probably in not that long a time the jobs will simply dry up and what then?

Will the new arrivals continue to be a net gain or a net loss. Who will pay if it is a net loss? The middle class or the wealthy?

Looking further into the future it won't just be the unskilled workers who are at risk but everyone. e.g. I full expect that in 30-50 years the vast majority of jobs that doctors do will also be done by automation, same for every industry even the creative industries. This will also coincide with many markets including many walled gardens essentially essentially becoming one global market which will only further increase the divide between winners and losers. Basically these super corporations that will result are going to have defacto global monopolies or cartels - some already do especially in tech.

What does this mean for Brexit? I'm not sure but personally I think we would be mad not to be worried about the erosion of democracy by the EU when entering this new future. I think too many people think the EU is this benign dictator and haven't asked themselves this question when the EU crisis and migrant crisis show they don't really care about European people but rather just the bottom line of European corporations.
 
Free movement is one of the core principles of the Eu the uk cannot expect to be treated. Any different. From the other. Member states To have access. To the single market


I posted this a while ago

EU Referendum: the Liechtenstein solution

Throughout much of the referendum debate, it has been assumed that, in order to continue participating in the Single Market, we would have to accept freedom of movement. Any number of high-ranking Commission officials have warned us that this is "non-negotiable".
Now, at last, we are beginning to have the debate we should have had before the referendum, we have the know-all BBC creeping out of the woodwork, together with others, to remind us of this, as more and more Johnny-come-latelys leap on the EEA bandwagon, including the revered Chatham House.

However, we should have known that the Commission officials (and the European politicians who joined them), were not telling the truth about freedom of movement – or at least the whole truth in respect of the EEA.

Almost too late, we discovered something hidden in plain sight: the fact that the EU has been quite willing to negotiate with one of the three Efta/EEA states on freedom of movement. Furthermore, they have come to an amicable solution, which has allowed it to secure an amendment to the treaty giving it a permanent opt-out to freedom of movement. The state concerned now operates a quota system little different in principle to the Australian points system.

- http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86122
 
Exports will depend on demand in the world economy and considering that there is a downturn in the world economy with this reflected in UK exports to non EU countries down £2.4 billion this past year. Exports to the EU have stayed the same this year.

Anthony Hilton: What do we have to sell following the Brexit vote?

"Theresa May, our shortly-to-be-anointed Prime Minister, has said that Brexit means Brexit, which presumably means we will leave the European single market at some point in the not-too-distant future. This implies departure whether or not we secure a deal that will allow us to keep at least some of our current benefits.

It will put significantly greater emphasis on our trade with the rest of the world. Indeed, a major reason advanced for leaving the EU was that it would leave us free to negotiate trade deals with the countries of Asia, Africa and South America that, although significantly poorer than the EU, have the advantage of growing faster. Nevertheless, we trade more with Ireland than with India and China combined, so abandoning one and gambling on the other is not something which will be easy to achieve without pain.

The first question to ask is what do we have to sell? What does the UK produce that the rest of the world wants? And what will it want in return?

We need to face up to an uncomfortable truth. The UK is not a great manufacturer.

It has some great manufacturing companies, but not enough of them. Manufacturing is only about 12% of the economy, and only a handful of companies within that are good enough to export.

Management consultants McKinsey did a study of UK manufacturing a few years ago in which it divided businesses into five categories that ranked them on their international competitiveness and ability to export down to their lack of anything special and consequent vulnerability to foreign competition.

Top of the list came innovative producers with a genuine competitive edge — firms such as Rolls-Royce and the pharmaceutical industry. The second category was for strongly branded producers with strong British links, which would be lost if manufacturing was moved overseas. Jaguar Land Rover is an obvious example.

Third were locational producers — firms that have to be close to their supply of raw materials or their market. Food processors are one example. A frozen-pea plant has to be close to farms where peas are grown; sugar refiners cluster in East Anglia, near where the beet is grown.

The fourth category was what McKinsey called exposed producers — companies that use technology and labour but don’t have much flair. These are OK at what they do but nothing special, and are clearly vulnerable. In this category, the bankruptcy of much of British steel and the struggles of Tata show the shape of things to come. Finally, there is a fifth category of cost-based producers that have no edge other than being cheaper than anyone else.

The challenge is not that manufacturing is small in relation to the economy as a whole because it is roughly the same proportion as in France or the US and less than Germany — reflecting the fact that as economies mature, they become more services-oriented. Rather the problem is that we have too few internationally competitive companies.

McKinsey estimated that only 9% and 5% respectively or our manufacturing employment is in the top two categories, and a further 22% is here for locational reasons. So 64% of our manufacturing jobs are clearly vulnerable to cheaper producers.

Three things flow from this. Any trade deal opens us to competition just as we hope to get free access to their markets. So any such deal is likely to take a heavy toll on the two thirds of British manufacturing that is uncompetitive — suggesting that leading Brexit economist Patrick Minford was close to the mark when he said before the vote that he expected manufacturing and agriculture to disappear once we left the EU.

Second, even if our leading sectors double their exports — which is asking a lot — it will not be enough to sort out the balance of payments deficit. Third — like it or not — services are what we are good at, and trade deals almost never do anything for services.

Nor is the manufacturing sector likely to grow enough to fill the gap because we are no longer that kind of economy. Successive governments since Margaret Thatcher have neglected those things that would make a difference. Our labour productivity per hour is one of the worst among developed nations and 17% behind France, reflecting years of under investment. Our school leavers are 28th in international league tables of mathematical attainment, reflecting years of substandard education for much of the population.

The World Economic Forum ranks us 33rd in the quality of infrastructure — relied upon by manufacturers as well as Southern Rail commuters — reflecting misguided government priorities and excessive reliance on private-sector funding for national needs. And British management, though it pays itself as if it is the best in the world, ranks poorly according to academic studies of the skills needed in a manufacturing environment.

There are things we are good at, but Brexit actively damages these. Financial services will suffer from the loss of the single market, and so will tourism. Currently, 60% of jobs in the London tourism and hospitality industry and almost 30% nationally are filled by non-British labour, which Brexiteers want to exclude. So service levels will dive.

Health, another major London business, is similarly reliant on non-British employees while higher education takes a double hit. It recruits internationally and much of its research funding is international, and therefore liable to be cut while immigration curbs will limit the ability to recruit foreign undergraduates. About 100,000 students from China currently spend an average of £20,000 a head on tuition fees in this country. That alone is £2 billion a year. But they can’t study here if we don’t let them in.

Finally, technology is heavily dependent on non-British labour —indeed, the mix of cultures helps make it innovative, creative and dynamic. Again immigration curbs can only do harm.

Being a successful trading nation is not about having trade deals, it is about having something to sell.

Successful countries know what they are good at, and work out what structures best play to these strengths. Perhaps we should work out what these things are first, then decide what to do".
It was the EU that let China dump steel USA and other countries put a massive tariffs to protect their steel industries 50 percent etc EU 10 percent we were helpless why because we belong to a rubbish polictical Union indecent countries seen it coming and protected their steel industries!
Our small manufacturing industries can now aim high to expand away from the throttling red tape of Brussels fetch it on world wide we will negotiate the single market within the EU with no casual freedom of movement and use the EU what it was supposed to be just a trading block!
 
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