Current Affairs EU In or Out

[larrygobfiend]

In spite of being retired, I am a busy man. Why should I spend time sorting it all out for you? Look it up yourself, there's plenty of info available.

Another comfortably retired brexiteer, no doubt insulated from any of the fallout.

There's a pattern here...

 

[roydo]

People break the law every day. You only break democracy once.

Who has broken democracy?

 

[Methuselah]

Explain how.

Undemocratic would be ignoring the duly elected House of Commons, which Johnson is advocating, not a non binary advisory referendum. Which, by the way, has been anything but ignored.

The advice of the electorate in the referendum was to leave. But if that isn't practical as it'd be national self harm, then it's up to the elected Parliament to do what is right for the country in their determination. Hell, that's why we have elections instead of referendums on everything.

The electorate voted 'LEAVE'. The options set by the government of the day was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. The electorate vote leave. The House of Commons then voted by a large majority to invoke Article 50. At the subsequent General Election, the two main parties campaigned on manifesto's that declared that the referendum result would be honoured. This represented about 80% of the GE vote. I think trying to overturn all that can be classed as undemocratic. As a final point, I would just add that : MP's are the servants of the people, people are not the servants of MP's.

 

[roydo]

The electorate voted 'LEAVE'. The options set by the government of the day was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. The electorate vote leave. The House of Commons then voted by a large majority to invoke Article 50. At the subsequent General Election, the two main parties campaigned on manifesto's that declared that the referendum result would be honoured. This represented about 80% of the GE vote. I think trying to overturn all that can be classed as undemocratic. As a final point, I would just add that : MP's are the servants of the people, people are not the servants of MP's.

I think most reasonable minded folk would be more interested in their jobs, freedoms, and incomes being best protected in this whole mess myself.

 

[Methuselah]

Who has broken democracy?

My post didn't say anyone had broken democracy. I made the point that the first time anyone breaks democracy then democracy is finished. Remainers need to think hard on that point.

 

[Methuselah]

I think most reasonable minded folk would be more interested in their jobs, freedoms, and incomes being best protected in this whole mess myself.

I am sure that many would have those concerns but I think the reasonably minded folk would be more interested in protecting democracy.

 

[roydo]

My post didn't say anyone had broken democracy. I made the point that the first time anyone breaks democracy then democracy is finished. Remainers need to think hard on that point.

Not really. It wasnt that democratic anyrate.

And Leavers should really really think really really hard at the real reason(s) why many of the main Leave protaganists have for wanting the UK to leave the EU. And to achieve their aims, have fed you lot a pile of crap.

 

[roydo]

I am sure that many would have those concerns but I think the reasonably minded folk would be more interested in protecting democracy.

My van wont work with unleaded democracy in it mate.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

whys that?

Because (as I understand it) he’s ensured that it will be this parliament that names his successor - a parliament that has shown (in a rare display of clarity and good sense) that it is keen to do what is necessary to avoid a No Deal Brexit.

 

[Methuselah]

My van wont work with unleaded democracy in it mate.

Of course it won't, you're a Remainer.lol

 

[roydo]

Of course it won't, you're a Remainer.lol

haha!

 

[Barnfred 55]

It can only happen at the moment because the Government dont have a majority. And no one is running scared of an election per ce; they are unwilling to allow Johnson to announce one, then for him to change the date to after Oct 31st which would mean we drift out of the EU without a deal.

I think it must be more than that. They can easily add an amendment to the GE bill saying the date has to be fixed for October 14th which will stop us drifting out. The no deal bill will be made law today so the GOVT, whichever is in charge after the election, will still have to apply to the EU for an extension to article 50 by 19 October.

Is it possible that they just want to see Johnson go hand in mouth to the EU to request an extension.? What do you think?

 

[roydo]

I think it must be more than that. They can easily add an amendment to the GE bill saying the date has to be fixed for October 14th which will stop us drifting out. The no deal bill will be made law today so the GOVT, whichever is in charge after the election, will still have to apply to the EU for an extension to article 50 by 19 October.

Is it possible that they just want to see Johnson go hand in mouth to the EU to request an extension.? What do you think?

Honestly? I dont know mate. HOC just started a debate on a bill or a standing order or sommet that compels the PM to not break the law ffs.

But apparently we are breaking democracy......

 

[The binman chronicles]

Thank you for the compliment. We are in a position of strength. We buy more from the EU than we sell to them and this doesn't take account of the fact that there is a strong possibility of a recession. EU member states will be rather desperate for our business. Your second paragraph is largely opinions with which I don't agree. Plus your comment about 'what we used to get back from being in the EU'. This is just returning our own money, we are net contributors. If we are out, we won't be paying it in the first place.

I wasn't talking about how much we pay in, and then what the EU spends on projects around the UK. Net contribution is just a word put out there to make it seem the EU are somehow scamming us. I was talking about the benefits and opportunities that being part of the common market afford us and that is worth way more than 250 million a week.

Up above you have described that the governor of the BoE has downgraded the effect on the economy down to somewhere over 5% with a no deal. You make it seem ok we can carry on with that, but then say other countries will be desperate for our business. Each EU country will have a small percentage of the economy effected by Brexit but all those percent add up to effecting ours. So which one is it, we will all be fine? In which case the EU don't need a deal. Or if you think they are going to struggle losing a % or two then we are going to be screwed with a 5% hit on the economy. In which case the EU still hold the upper hand.

 

[Xizor]

I made the point that the first time anyone breaks democracy then democracy is finished. Remainers need to think hard on that point.

Indeed. A political party changing leader internally at a time selected to prevent that leader undergoing any democratc scrutiny from the House for a month. That leader then suspending the House after just 5 days sitting for over a month again, hence avoiding any scrutiny in the chamber and also noticeably from the liaison committees trying to hold him to account as part of our normal democratic process. Throwing a majority away and then seeking to bully the House into an election to gain another one. Making threats to simply ignore laws passed by the elected legislature if they're too inconvenient. In fact, it seems for the last few months the Tories have viewed our democracy as too inconvenient for them at every juncture...

These are all dangerous manoeuvres and you're right to point out we should be thinking hard on them, as they could easily be early death knells for democracy in this country - a dictatorial executive that has decided that it is not accountable to our democratically elected representatives or even the laws they pass. A country with a leader behaving like that is only sliding one way.

So I'm in full solidarity with you that we need to support Parliament standing up to these abhorrent practices.