Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

I seem to have struck a nerve there haven't I.

Just how far back do you want to go? USA given back to the Red Indians, Australia given back to the Aborigines?

We have to draw a line somewhere from which we then start to move forward. I am not going to disagree with you that many injustices were perpetrated in the past but how far back do you really want to go? I think we have to start by accepting the present situation as a datum on which to move forward.

I think we have to respect the right to self determination. Irrespective of history, people should be allowed to vote for how they wish their country to be run. Insofar as that concerns brexit that really has to be UK as a whole but thereafter if we are to be consistent then we have to allow votes in all home countries to decide if they wish to remain part of the Union. I obviously hope that the Union remains but I would respect the outcome of any legitimate referendum. I just wish others could show the same respect for the brexit referendum.

I don't call that pathetic. I call that mature. But personal insults such as you make which play the man rather than the ball do nothing for your cause and do nothing for yourself either.

You haven't really hit a nerve @RichardP. You do, however, have a tendency to hypocrisy when advising people about democracy. Do you have any idea how Ireland was split up? The vote preceding it? I doubt it. The island of Ireland was split despite the majority of voters wanting a free and united Ireland. So, in answer to your question, I'd go back to Irish independence. I would ask the Irish people as a whole to decide what they want. This would disregard the artificial British separation and following that result I would take on the Brexit question. It is the minority DUP bigots that May and Johnson are kowtowing to and they would be exposed to true democracy.
If you 'accept the present situation as a datum' are you accepting the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory? The Turks in TRNC? The Russians in Ukraine? See? Not that easy is it?
I call ignorance of the abuse of democracy pathetic. I still do. If you want to try the cap on and it fits, by all means wear it.

 

[Jebus_lives]

We voted for what the PM told us would happen if we voted Leave. Out of the Customs Union being one of the benefits. May's WA kept us shackled to EU via a Customs Union with no time limit or unilateral means of exit. It therefore was not what Cameron assured us would happen if we voted Leave. That is what we want, what Cameron assured us would happen if we voted Leave. No more, no less.

Did we?

I thought we could all dismiss that as Project Fear?

Because if the opposite is true and you voted leave believing full well that all of the worst examples of disruption would happen and you didn't find it a problem then you're insane.

 

[Jebus_lives]

You really haven't got a clue have you.

I am happily married outside of my race, ethnicity and religion. I work happily for a company that employs (at the last count) over 160 different nationalities and we all have to work very closely together, entirely dependent on each other in our safety critical roles.

I have operated in a similar environment in 3 different countries for over 23 years commercially and have made lifelong friends from more nationalities and religions than I care to name. Even the Irish!

So, its not that I dont like foreigners. What I dont like are people that cause trouble. What I dont like are people that claim to be refugees but are, in fact, economic migrants.

But what disgusts me more than anything is prejudiced idiots such as yourself who have got no clue about the subject matter, are spring loaded to the aggressive position when someone has a different opinion to your own, cannot countenance the possibility of being wrong and seek to attack the individual rather than debate the issue.

Perhaps if you took a pace back and looked at the bigger picture rather than just listen to the sound bites in the Remain echo chamber which you obviously inhabit, you might have a better grasp of how the rest of the world works and then be able to contribute something worthwhile to the debate. Until you can do that you are just wasting bandwidth and time.

Do we take many refugees from Europe?

Or are you making a general point about your dislike of foreigners?

 

[Charlie Sweet]

@RichardP

Need to draw a line here and start again.

Do you think the UK will (financially) better off after Brexit? If so over what timeframe and why?

In terms of being in control of one's own future etc I get the theory but in practice what do you see changing? I.e. in what way is the EU currently an issue for you?

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Do we take many refugees from Europe?

Or are you making a general point about your dislike of foreigners?

i Can’t believe @RichardP said that to be fair. Disgusting and I’ll informed on so many levels. Ashamed that fellow evertonians have that view

 

[Jebus_lives]

i Can’t believe @RichardP said that to be fair. Disgusting and I’ll informed on so many levels. Ashamed that fellow evertonians have that view

Let's not be hasty, I'm sure it will be backed up by statistics and evidence rather than his own opinion.

 

[Xizor]

I honestly can't believe he's still going, but then I suppose I attributed to him a sense of shame and humility somewhere in the normal range for a decent human being, which he's clearly shown is an aspirational status he has no intention striving for.

You know... racist bigotry shining through with his posts, a fervent desire to undermine the nation's democratic process by ramming the tight, suspect result of one plebiscite through roughshod over parliamentary norms (all the while demanding people the respect the very democracy he supports destroying)... but no. Let's stop there before we Godwin.

 

[Methuselah]

I do believe in democracy. Absolutely.

I am very concerned that the Leave side broke election law. That can jeopardise democracy - agree?

You appear to be a straight binary kind of guy. Leave means leave etc. I dont see how you square that position with conjecture and speculation on what additional "stuff" went alongside the Yes/No to leave the EU. In law the matter is simple in black and white.

How do you pick and choose what was said in the background to the referendum vote? All manner of things were discussed and promised.

You are right that the government said a partial in/out was problematic (because it is).

Do you remember anyone saying the UK would have to pay €39 billion? I dont. But its accepted as fact now.

Do you remember huge warnings about the Northern Ireland peace process? From my personal background I knew it would be a disaster but, in terms of general media, the warnings of Blair and Major were given scant attention.

Do you remember Fox and others saying it would be a walk in the park signing trade deals immediately? That's turned out well.

Lastly I do believe in democracy - a parliamentary democracy. That is the foundation of the UK. If parliament gets to deadlock and votes for another referendum or to revoke A50 then thats it. Do you agree? Or are you not given to giving back control to Westminster after all?

On your last point. Presumably you would be happy if, following a GE where Labour were voted in, all the other parties in Parliament got together and voted for another election? Whether you like it or not, democracy in this country is defined by 'first past the post voting'. The day that this is overturned, will be the death of democracy in this country.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

This explains an element of the Brexit vote.

Warning there are swear words.

 

[spectateur]

Hi

On your last point. Presumably you would be happy if, following a GE where Labour were voted in, all the other parties in Parliament got together and voted for another election? Whether you like it or not, democracy in this country is defined by 'first past the post voting'. The day that this is overturned, will be the death of democracy in this country.

I'm sorry but true democracy can never be obtained from a FPTP electoral system. It leaves far too many people without representation or under represented. Viz 5M votes for ukip and green resulted in 2 seats. Whether you agree with these parties or not it is not representative democracy.

 

[Methuselah]

Hi
I'm sorry but true democracy can never be obtained from a FPTP electoral system. It leaves far too many people without representation or under represented. Viz 5M votes for ukip and green resulted in 2 seats. Whether you agree with these parties or not it is not representative democracy.

Well it has served us pretty well for most of the last 100 years. People only seem to be against it when they lose.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It's more like whack a person with a different point of view. Anyone with a different point of view, quickly learns they are wasting their time.

Its the undoing of the remain argument they are no different to leave argument, two wonky eyed extremities entrenched in a deathly stare to the end

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

On your last point. Presumably you would be happy if, following a GE where Labour were voted in, all the other parties in Parliament got together and voted for another election? Whether you like it or not, democracy in this country is defined by 'first past the post voting'. The day that this is overturned, will be the death of democracy in this country.

Absolute nonsense. You seem to be suggesting that countries that use PR aren't truly democratic whereas the opposite is true.

Another example of the a la carte democracy so favoured by Leavers - use whatever version that suits at the time and claim only your interpretation can be correct. It is arrogant rubbish.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Well it has served us pretty well for most of the last 100 years. People only seem to be against it when they lose.

More to do with people not being engaged... Now there is an economic squeeze minds and sphicters are very sensitive!

 

[RichardP]

@RichardP

Need to draw a line here and start again.

Do you think the UK will (financially) better off after Brexit? If so over what timeframe and why?

In terms of being in control of one's own future etc I get the theory but in practice what do you see changing? I.e. in what way is the EU currently an issue for you?

Have a read of the Lisbon treaty.

If you can't and won't understand how EU is taking away control, soveteignty, call it what you will, then no explanation from anyone will ever get past your brainwashed -like view on EU.

We want to be in control of our own future. In EU we are not and that will only get worse when the current policy of consensus moves to qualified majority. But then, youknew that didn't you.