Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Xizor]

Far better (though unlikely) for the country to come together and get a negotiated deal (which can be done in less than 30 days according to Merkel and others) but a WTO exit is just fine too.

You... didn't really pay attention to this week's developments, did you? That's not remotely Merkel's position.

 

[Xizor]

It really is that simple and to adopt the rather arrogant and condescending attitude that Leavers didn't know what they voted for is both inaccurate and an attempted abuse of the democratic process.

If the specific terms of the negotiated WA has been on the ballot paper as Leave - £39b, backstop, the whole works there in black and white (lets assume secret negotiations between London and Brussels between 2015 and 2016) - would you have voted for it vs 'Remain with no changes'?

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Bruce, do you believe in democracy?

If you truly believe in democracy you accept that this decision cannot be enacted until a way of implementing it is found which is acceptable to both parliament and the public. You do not walk blindfolded over the cliff edge with your fingers crossed hoping against all the odds that you have a safe landing.

If you want an example of proper democracy where people knew what they were voting for take the Good Friday Agreement. Copies of that agreement were circulated to every person who had a vote, so they knew exactly what they were voting for when they stepped into the polling booth. The EU referendum in the UK was merely advisory; is then encumbent on the politicians to come to an agreement which then needs to be put back to the people for approval who would then know exactly what they are voting for. That is true democracy. Calling people 'bitter' and describing agreements as 'surrender' is unhelpful.

 

[RichardP]

If the specific terms of the negotiated WA has been on the ballot paper as Leave - £39b, backstop, the whole works there in black and white (lets assume secret negotiations between London and Brussels between 2015 and 2016) - would you have voted for it vs 'Remain with no changes'?

Would you! It was perhaps the lesser of the 2 evils but is a hypothetical question which is therefore irrelevant.

More importantly, neither Remain nor May's deal complied with the Leave decision made by the people so your question has no merit.

 

[RichardP]

If you truly believe in democracy you accept that this decision cannot be enacted until a way of implementing it is found which is acceptable to both parliament and the public. You do not walk blindfolded over the cliff edge with your fingers crossed hoping against all the odds that you have a safe landing.

If you want an example of proper democracy where people knew what they were voting for take the Good Friday Agreement. Copies of that agreement were circulated to every person who had a vote, so they knew exactly what they were voting for when they stepped into the polling booth. The EU referendum in the UK was merely advisory; is then encumbent on the politicians to come to an agreement which then needs to be put back to the people for approval who would then know exactly what they are voting for. That is true democracy. Calling people 'bitter' and describing agreements as 'surrender' is unhelpful.

We voted to leave so leave we must and leave we will.

It was also made clear that leave meant we leave every aspect of the EU - political integration, Customs Union, Common Fisheries Policy etc,everything.

So, people did know what we were voting for. May's surrender deal (and wilful surrender at that) did not deliver what we voted for and was,quite rightly, voted down by Parliament on three separate occasions.

BoJo does appear to know what we voted for and is determined to deliver it.

All this contrived hair splitting from defeated Remainers is just another attempt to subvert democracy.

So, I ask again. Do you believe in democracy?

 

[Xizor]

Would you! It was perhaps the lesser of the 2 evils but is a hypothetical question which is therefore irrelevant.

More importantly, neither Remain nor May's deal complied with the Leave decision made by the people so your question has no merit.

So just another dishonest Leaver who ducks behind the 'hypothetical' sofa to squirm away from the "having to be honest that they didn't know what they voted for" Daleks. As you can't answer without giving yourself away, let me fill in your blanks - you either would have voted for it as the Leave option, in which case you're a hypocrite of the highest order, or you wouldn't have voted for it, in which case you accept that there are multiple outcomes of Brexit and you didn't know what you were voting for, so you're lying now.

Hypocrite or liar, the choice is yours. Chalk another one up on the board. They're falling like flies!

 

[Xizor]

We voted to leave so leave we must and leave we will.

It was also made clear that leave meant we leave every aspect of the EU - political integration, Customs Union, Common Fisheries Policy etc,everything.

So, people did know what we were voting for. May's surrender deal (and wilful surrender at that) did not deliver what we voted for and was,quite rightly, voted down by Parliament on three separate occasions.

BoJo does appear to know what we voted for and is determined to deliver it.

All this contrived hair splitting from defeated Remainers is just another attempt to subvert democracy.

So, I ask again. Do you believe in democracy?

Mate you're having an absolute 'mare of a morning. I'd go get some fresh air.

 

[Xizor]

If you want an example of proper democracy...

Even better than that, if you want an example of how a government attempts to marry a referendum into their existing democratic system then look at Ireland's recent gay marriage referendum - before the vote itself the government had drawn up the exact law that would be enacted should the vote pass. In that instance, people could certainly be said to have known what they were voting for. Sadly the same cannot be said here.

How Dublin is properly schooling London in the arts of democracy and good governance right now!

 

[Khalekan]

We knew exactly what we were voting for. We won the vote and BoJo will deliver it.

It really is that simple.

Of course you knew what you “were voting for”.

You were told often enough by the people on the other side who accurately predicted all this chaos long before Yellowhammer was dreamed up to cope with disruption to be visited on our lives if the junta takes us over the cliff edge at Halloween.

Brexit proponents during the Referendum sure as heck didn’t tell you about it and in fact are using the fact the Remain side pointed out the pitfalls as “evidence” that the gullible fell for the three card trick that is Brexit.

“The Remain side told them all this would happen but they voted for us any old way”.

One can almost picture Banks and Farage sniggering in the background like Rick Dastardly and Muttley, whispering P.T. Barnum’s immortal phrase, “there’s one born every minute”.

What is bizarre is that someone claiming to know “exactly what" they “were voting for” went ahead and voted for it anyway.

And that seeing what even the cabinet of Brexit fanatics describe as being likely to happen in November are still daft enough to stand over it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce, do you believe in democracy?

No.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

We voted to leave so leave we must and leave we will.

It was also made clear that leave meant we leave every aspect of the EU - political integration, Customs Union, Common Fisheries Policy etc,everything.

So, people did know what we were voting for. May's surrender deal (and wilful surrender at that) did not deliver what we voted for and was,quite rightly, voted down by Parliament on three separate occasions.

BoJo does appear to know what we voted for and is determined to deliver it.

All this contrived hair splitting from defeated Remainers is just another attempt to subvert democracy.

So, I ask again. Do you believe in democracy?

Not your version anyway. It is reminiscent of that of a certain loud mouthed clergyman who said NO to everything.

If YOU believed in democracy you would take into account that 2 of the constituent parts of the the UK voted to remain, which made the outcome of the referendum 2-2, and you would put the agreement to the people. What are you afraid of that you won't...

 

[RichardP]

So just another dishonest Leaver who ducks behind the 'hypothetical' sofa to squirm away from the "having to be honest that they didn't know what they voted for" Daleks. As you can't answer without giving yourself away, let me fill in your blanks - you either would have voted for it as the Leave option, in which case you're a hypocrite of the highest order, or you wouldn't have voted for it, in which case you accept that there are multiple outcomes of Brexit and you didn't know what you were voting for, so you're lying now.

Hypocrite or liar, the choice is yours. Chalk another one up on the board. They're falling like flies!

Sticks and stones dear girl. Ad hominem says far more about you than me.

The hypothetical choices you present were not the choice we had to make. We had to choose, quite simply, by staying completely in (Remain) or leaving completely (Leave) - exiting Customs Union, Common Fisheries Policy etc in the process. It was made very clear. Perhaps you weren't listening?

We chose to leave and you having a hissy fit is not going to change that. Your petsonal insults merely detract from your own argument, make you look what you are and further inspire and reassure me that Leave is by far the best thing we have ever voted for. So thank you for that.

So, do you respect democracy and the referendum result or not? Nobody in the Remain camp seems to want to answer that question. It really is quite simple.

 

[RichardP]

Not your version anyway. It is reminiscent of that of a certain loud mouthed clergyman who said NO to everything.

If YOU believed in democracy you would take into account that 2 of the constituent parts of the the UK voted to remain, which made the outcome of the referendum 2-2, and you would put the agreement to the people. What are you afraid of that you won't...

We voted as a United Kingdom and the decision therefore affects the United Kingdom. If you want to get on your own personal soap box further down the track and campaign for whatever else floats your boat then fair enough. But this thread is about the UK exiting the EU. YOU are in the wrong thread for any other subject.

 

[RichardP]

No.

Then I have some rather bad news for you. UK is a democracy and that is how we run our country.

I am with Churchill on the matter when he stated that 'Democracy is a terrible way to run a country - until you consider the alternatives!'

Right then, right now!

Our democratic freedoms allow people to dislike that all they like but you will never, ever change it.

Out of interest, as an anti democrat, what sort of government system would you prefer?

 

[RichardP]

Even better than that, if you want an example of how a government attempts to marry a referendum into their existing democratic system then look at Ireland's recent gay marriage referendum - before the vote itself the government had drawn up the exact law that would be enacted should the vote pass. In that instance, people could certainly be said to have known what they were voting for. Sadly the same cannot be said here.

How Dublin is properly schooling London in the arts of democracy and good governance right now!

Different country, different system and totally irrelevent to brexit. And, the gay marriage issue was 100% an internal Ireland issue. Where an outcome then leads to negotiated trade deals with other countries, the final outcome is then dependent on those negotiations which UK could not even undertake and sign up to while still a member of EU. So not really an appropriate example. Nice try though.

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