Current Affairs EU In or Out

[roydo]

fair enough but WWII has been repeatedly referenced during the Brexit debate and certainly by those who wish to leave.

Wasnt that clip of South African living, white late middle aged leaver Geoff Boycott removed by TV AM because he prattled on about us winning WW2?

Which was then applauded by LA living (he has a place there anyrate) white late middle aged besie mates with Trump, Piers Morgan?

Geoff Boycott. Piers Morgan. Rees Mogg. Farage. Johnson

Not sure the Dads Army reference is actually that far off target.

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

So the UK are playing chicken with the far bigger and stronger EU and the plan is to hope that the EU blink first because they have a different solution up their sleeve?
Lets boil this down.
If the EU gives the UK a deal that's satisfactory to the UK parliament, it could spell the end of the EU
If the EU doesnt give the UK a deal that satisfactory to the UK parliament, it could spell the end of the UK.
They found a middle ground to avoid both scenarios but the whole of parliament was held hostage by the DUP.

It kinda blows my mind that the deal May negotiated got so easily smeared by the far right and DUP and all Brexiteers went along with that narrative.

100% Ru. This is where we are in a nutshell.

 

[The binman chronicles]

So the UK are playing chicken with the far bigger and stronger EU and the plan is to hope that the EU blink first because they have a different solution up their sleeve?
Lets boil this down.
If the EU gives the UK a deal that's satisfactory to the UK parliament, it could spell the end of the EU
If the EU doesnt give the UK a deal that satisfactory to the UK parliament, it could spell the end of the UK.
They found a middle ground to avoid both scenarios but the whole of parliament was held hostage by the DUP.

It kinda blows my mind that the deal May negotiated got so easily smeared by the far right and DUP and all Brexiteers went along with that narrative.

May's deal would have probably led to a second Scottish independence referendum. There is no easy out here.

 

[Xizor]

Not sure the Dads Army reference is actually that far off target.

Not really. It's unfortunate (though sadly not unexpected) that Methuselah reacted the way he did, I posted that image precisely because I knew it very well as the opening scene from the 1971 TV movie and it popped into my head the moment I read the post I quoted.

Anyway, it seems a lot of snippy exhanges in the last few pages could have been avoided if I'd have just gone instead with Tango's "Come on then Sebastian" advert from the mid-90s, in which a chubby middle-aged white bloke offers out metropolitan France:

Draw your own damn analogies.

 

[peteblue]

As I have said before I agree with you that there is the technologies and solutions out there.

The key findings and takeaways though in this report. Which I have read before. I actually worked with one of the people in this report on rfid solutions and implementation.

Anyway if you read the part on the smart border you will see the amount of items needed to complete the project.

These items require as it states first collaboration, which would mean integrated systems across the border. Currently the Gardai and PSNI have been working on ANPR joint system which will then tie into the UK also. It's up in test I believe but it's been a couple years since my involvement.

Anyway the rest of the items mentioned would take about a year maybe two. Only after this document is vetted by whomever your government decides will be a) the driving factor project wise and b) the winning bidder contractor wise.

This is going to be a legnthy process. One that should have been started two years ago

Now if you plan to leave by October that is no where close to getting a system this heavy running. If they do they will most certainly have rushed it and will have big issues.

I can tell you without going into too much detail that I know for a fact the UK has done nowt on finding someone as in no tenders have gone out and the leading experts in this field have only spoken with the EU. How do I know? Well I know some of them personally.

I totally agree with you. Especially with starting earlier, as I stated three years ago. Timescales can be compressed as you know, and features and capabilities can be progressively rolled out as part of its implementation plan. It just takes Political will.....

 

[peteblue]

I was acknowledging that you do. The rest of my point still stands.

You’re right, I do believe that all Remainers are avocado eating Millennials......

 

[Xizor]

There is no easy out here.

You're not wrong. I used to be amazed reading about the various political Questions (caps intended), often faced by European governments in the 19th century. With the benefit of hindsight you wonder why nations couldn't just be decisive, and instead failed to deal with a problem for years or decades at a time, but it really was almost always a case that making any move would cause serious repercussions one way or the other which presumably resulted in political can-kicking so as to avoid blame for disaster.

 

[Xizor]

You’re right, I do believe that all Remainers are avocado eating Millennials......

Pro-Remain was the trend in demographics up until the mid-40s as far as I recall, and it will probably shock you to learn that the term 'Milliennial' applies to people now reaching their late 30s (2021 sees us breaching 40), so you're not too far from the truth (the generation after Milliennials are now reaching adulthood).

And I've got nothing against avocado, though I don't particularly seek it out. Never smashed it though (settle down Keysey).

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I totally agree with you. Especially with starting earlier, as I stated three years ago. Timescales can be compressed as you know, and features and capabilities can be progressively rolled out as part of its implementation plan. It just takes Political will.....

That's empty rhetoric Pete. The Department For Exiting The EU have a huge budget, yet it's taken the European Commission to produce the report you linked to (a while ago at that). No calls for tender have been put out with vendors. No trials have been undertaken. No research of their own has been done. Absolutely nothing. Yet you complain about a backstop that Britain wanted and you demand the EU solve for us. It's got about as much substance as the politicians you back. It's like me telling you you could have built one of your military helicopters from scratch in a month if you had sufficient will. I dare say you'd tell me to 'eff off.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

They found a middle ground to avoid both scenarios but the whole of parliament was held hostage by the DUP.

Any sensible government would have absolved the partnership that empowered DUP way beyond its democratic mandate.
And accepted the consequences...

 

[Xizor]

That's empty rhetoric Pete. The Department For Exiting The EU have a huge budget, yet it's taken the European Commission to produce the report you linked to (a while ago at that). No calls for tender have been put out with vendors. No trials have been undertaken. No research of their own has been done. Absolutely nothing.

Handwave, handwave, something something remoaner gloomster Whitehall conspiracy something, repeat ad nauseum. Now that renowned man-of-his-word Johnson is at the helm it'll be different, because finally there's a man in charge that doesn't let little things like painful reality get in the way of his electioneering... oops, I mean responsible and mature governance.

And as ever, the question is if the Brexiters are so damn sure that the technology exists (or indeed any alternative arrangement, including teams of trained leprechauns patrolling the border on their majestic Brexit unicorns, dispensing pots of gold to lorry drivers with the correct paperwork) then what's the problem with the backstop? Pass the deal, get the UK out, and wait for the alternative arrangement to be implemented some time in the transition period. Done, dusted, everything you want has come to pass, right?

Why isn't it working that way? Is it because despite insistence to the contrary, the anti-backstop agitators know there isn't any sort of workable alternative in the pipeline and realise the backstop will be in full force for the foreseeable future, stopping those glorious trade deals that, whilst won't be as good as our current ones, will at least make them and their mates personal fortunes?

Or is it because a lot of the Brexit movers and shakers don't actually want a Deal at all, because the 'transition period' sees them unable to start milking the dividends for 2 years, and why should they have to wait before they can start profiting off other people's misfortune? Esepcially if a No Deal means they start making money now, AND the chaos is far worse.

 

[Cool_Blue]

I have read most of this without getting heavily involved....I’m too old and thick.
However, one thing occurred to me during the endless Parliamentary votes. Should an MP vote with their personal conscience or in accordance with their constituents wishes? I’m not sure I know the answer. If it’s the latter, it’s only this subject to which it could be applied of course as there was a referendum, so MP’s knew how their constituents voted. My MP is one of the Tory rebels, hates Boris, sorry, Mr Johnson, and, consequently, is standing down at the next GE.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I have read most of this without getting heavily involved....I’m too old and thick.
However, one thing occurred to me during the endless Parliamentary votes. Should an MP vote with their personal conscience or in accordance with their constituents wishes? I’m not sure I know the answer. If it’s the latter, it’s only this subject to which it could be applied of course as there was a referendum, so MP’s knew how their constituents voted. My MP is one of the Tory rebels, hates Boris, sorry, Mr Johnson, and, consequently, is standing down at the next GE.

Indeed...

This dilemma perfectly demonstrates how inadequate referendums are to UK representative democracy. There is good reason why they are restricted in scope and have very clear defined parameters in many other countries.

Referendum have long been tools of those who are most desperate to divide and rule.

Any use of referendum should be very carefully considered. And not glibly churned out so eagerly like Cameron and subsequent LIbDems along with other divide and rule remainers. They have more or less desperately wanted another knee jerk referendum since the day of the last referendum result, and just sunk to Farage level of democracy, throwing stones...

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Remain or leave our political system simply can't be allowed to just carry on as it is. Its broken right now, seemingly beyond repair. I have no faith in anyone, in any party in this country. I don't know the answer but I know that the longer it carries on the worse things will get. The longer this disconnect between politicians and your everyman/woman continues the more likely it gets that we'll eventually see violence on the streets in huge numbers of people which will only make the situation even worse.

 

[spectateur]

I totally agree with you. Especially with starting earlier, as I stated three years ago. Timescales can be compressed as you know, and features and capabilities can be progressively rolled out as part of its implementation plan. It just takes Political will.....

And a hell of a lot practical engineering skills to carry it out. Is that professional engineering knowledge available?