Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
Not open for further replies.
Charlie Sweet said:
Pete straight question - do you not think it takes the mick you picking and choosing which democratic votes you choose to respect?

So the referendum in 2016 is sacrosanct and you dont want the people to vote again in 2019 with more knowledge on the matter? It would be the same people voting so how is it undemocratic?

You want parliament's vote to enact Article 50 to be respected - presumably on basis you respect MPs and the parliamentary system but then you dont want (pretty much the same) MPs to now express their free will and use the parliamentary system to stop (a No Deal) Brexit? How can you justify picking and choosing which set of MP actions to respect?

And then you always keep going on about these "Bloody Remainer MPs" going against the will of the people but you ignore the fact this Johnson government is kept afloat by a tiny group of nut job DUP MPs that are actively going against the will of the people in Northern Ireland? Explain?
Click to expand...

@peteblue based on your last post can you give it a shot at answering me above?
 
The binman chronicles said:
The problem is you keep thinking we had power in these negotiations. The way you talk you'd think we were the rest of the EU dealing with the UK. If they gave us a great deal then the EU would cease to exist, so the EU's stance has followed a predictable and logical pattern. People here will still buy german cars, anything we manufacture can and will move to the continent.
Click to expand...

In any negotiation, the only true ‘power’ is the power to walk away. But for this to have any effect both sides must believe it will be carried out. Neither the EU nor May/Hammond believed that they would do so, and the likes of Hammond kept drip feeding this message meaning that the Eu had a free run. In just 3 weeks, Boris has changed that perception and belief on both sides of the channel. So now the ball is back with the EU, but even today Hammond has written an open letter to the PM, duly signed by the other remoaners David Lidington, David Gauke, Rory Stewart and Greg Clark, in an attempt to again undermine the U.K. position, just as they undermined May for three years. The difference of course is that Boris had the steel to sack the lot of them and to properly prepare for just walking away and then continuing to trade with the EU anyway.....
 
Bruce Wayne said:
The referendum didn't specify what kind of deal we would have, so I don't see how you can now throw your toys out of the pram about what May came back with, which, lest we forget, seems to have hit the rocks based upon a backstop agreement that could easily be resolved by virtue of the technological solutions that you and others have said are easily available, but which have yet to materialise. That's all it takes - a solution to the border in Ireland. You've said these solutions exist right now, yet even with all the tubthumping from Johnson, Gove et al about the undemocratic nature of this backstop, no moves have been put in place to test such technologies. You've been had Pete.
Click to expand...

We shall see.....
 
Charlie Sweet said:
Pete straight question - do you not think it takes the mick you picking and choosing which democratic votes you choose to respect?

So the referendum in 2016 is sacrosanct and you dont want the people to vote again in 2019 with more knowledge on the matter? It would be the same people voting so how is it undemocratic?

You want parliament's vote to enact Article 50 to be respected - presumably on basis you respect MPs and the parliamentary system but then you dont want (pretty much the same) MPs to now express their free will and use the parliamentary system to stop (a No Deal) Brexit? How can you justify picking and choosing which set of MP actions to respect?

And then you always keep going on about these "Bloody Remainer MPs" going against the will of the people but you ignore the fact this Johnson government is kept afloat by a tiny group of nut job DUP MPs that are actively going against the will of the people in Northern Ireland? Explain?
Click to expand...

You are of course right that I am selectively looking at the voting. However, 2016 was a national referendum, the article 50 vote and the 2017 votes were based on promises by both main parties to enact the referendum result. The nonsense that is going on at the moment though is just that, nonsense. Parliament has voted down May’s deal three times, they have voted down every alternative. This is about Labour refusing any deal because it wants a GE and the Tory remoaners wanting to keep us in the EU, the SNP just want an independence vote. So I am being selective, I am going with those votes that enact what the people voted for and not the party politics and EU Remainers trying to undermine what we voted for. The DUP have done an electoral deal with the government and are seeing it through, SF don’t even bother to represent their electors neither within NI nor Westminster......
 
peteblue said:
This is the fault of Remoaners pure and simple. Instead of backing the PM to negotiate a proper deal they hamstrung her from the very beginning. The opposition were just playing politics, but Hammond and co inside of government put the U.K. in a terrible negotiating position. Using the usual remainer argument, at the 2016 and 2017 votes I don’t remember anyone voting to take ‘no deal’ off the table, but that is exactly what Parliament did. They gave the EU all the support they needed to stitch up the worst possible deal on the basis of trying to reverse the original vote. It was cynical and it continues to this day. Did I want a deal, yes, would I take this deal, no, would I take no deal, yes.......now stop shooting ourselves in the foot and see what transpires.......
Click to expand...

It is more and more apparent that you and other No Deal Brexit fans are really struggling to find an argument to defend, well, anything. It's been evidenced by how rarely you'll respond to genuine questions that require genuine answers. Then when people question on this it's the 'typical Remoaners' or 'I have faith in Britain' or 'now you're calling us idiots'. There's been no genuine answers or even genuine attempts to answer most questions by those in charge of Brexit and those wanting to leave, and it's frustrating that this is what is happening to our country.
 
peteblue said:
You are of course right that I am selectively looking at the voting. However, 2016 was a national referendum, the article 50 vote and the 2017 votes were based on promises by both main parties to enact the referendum result. The nonsense that is going on at the moment though is just that, nonsense. Parliament has voted down May’s deal three times, they have voted down every alternative. This is about Labour refusing any deal because it wants a GE and the Tory remoaners wanting to keep us in the EU, the SNP just want an independence vote. So I am being selective, I am going with those votes that enact what the people voted for and not the party politics and EU Remainers trying to undermine what we voted for. The DUP have done an electoral deal with the government and are seeing it through, SF don’t even bother to represent their electors neither within NI nor Westminster......
Click to expand...

This is just not the truth.

For starters you've proven, once again, how little you know about Irish politics
 
dead_soft said:
This is just not the truth.

For starters you've proven, once again, how little you know about Irish politics
Click to expand...

Which bit did I get wrong ? That the DUP have a pact with the conservatives, SF are no longer part of the Assembly, or that SF refuse to take their seats at Westminster ?.......
 
peteblue said:
An agreement is only an agreement when it is accepted by both sides. Parliament has not accepted it....
Click to expand...

But you said above that you didn't accept it. Why? As said above, the WA fulfills the mandate of 'leave the EU'.

By any of the original definitions, Theresa's deal is a 'Hard Brexit'. Long-term, it leaves the SM, CU, and a host of other pan-continental groups. But predictably, once it was known what a Hard Brexit would actually look like, it wasn't anywhere near Hard enough for the Hardliners.

For the record, even as an ardent remainer I'd 100% support a Soft Brexit position where we actually got to retain the personal-level benefits of membership, whilst removing ourselves from the EU political processes. If this had been the aim at the start of the negotiations I have no doubt that a majority would have got behind it (Labour would have no complaints), and staying in the SM and CU would have meant no issues to resolve with Ireland. We'd have been 'out' on the 29th March 2019 as promised. Sadly, May's backroom team of Hard Brexiters immediately got in her ear and started to formulate her 'red lines' for her that could only end up in this funky 'indefinate vassal state because of NI' situation that has no resolution.

Of course, you'd have Farage screaming betrayal, Rees-Mogg banging on about 'Brexit in Name Only' etc, you'd have Liam Fox complaining we now can't get the trade deals he wants (who gives a toss as we'd retain all the better ones we have with and through the EU). But for the vast majority of the country, the Brexit morass would be 'over', everyone would have certainty and we'd have all been able to get on with our lives. Instead, the poisonous rhetoric employed by the Leave Extremists has further entrenched positions to the point where Soft Brexit is just a ghost and hasn't been mentioned for years, and a Hard Brexit isn't enough. And then the Leavers wonder why Remainers have started to push back and say 'you know what, we're tired of being the only ones compromising here'.

The Brexit Breakdown is fully owned by the hardest of the Leavers, Pete. If a Soft approach had been favoured in the beginning, we'd have been out by now. You might not have personally liked the outcome, but that's not really relevant.
 
peteblue said:
In any negotiation, the only true ‘power’ is the power to walk away. But for this to have any effect both sides must believe it will be carried out. Neither the EU nor May/Hammond believed that they would do so, and the likes of Hammond kept drip feeding this message meaning that the Eu had a free run. In just 3 weeks, Boris has changed that perception and belief on both sides of the channel. So now the ball is back with the EU, but even today Hammond has written an open letter to the PM, duly signed by the other remoaners David Lidington, David Gauke, Rory Stewart and Greg Clark, in an attempt to again undermine the U.K. position, just as they undermined May for three years. The difference of course is that Boris had the steel to sack the lot of them and to properly prepare for just walking away and then continuing to trade with the EU anyway.....
Click to expand...

I'm not sure our BATNA is very strong Pete.
 
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