Current Affairs EU In or Out

[nsno-chris]

I’m sure that I would enjoy a few pints with you. I appreciate that the commonwealth could not make up the difference if we suddenly lost sales to the EU, but trade with the EU will not suddenly stop. Supply chains are far too complicated for that to happen.The U.K. is also in a good position to be creative based on the fact that the EU sells a great deal more to us than we do to them. The U.K. government could support exporters to the EU by covering any export tariffs for them using the larger import tariffs collected from EU imports. I know the rates will be different for different products but the trade imbalance is so great that at worst we would break even. I’ve never seen improved links to the commonwealth as a replacement for the EU but as an additional market that we can help formulate and improve.....

What about the general public Pete, you know when you have an extra 40% launched onto your food because the tariffs for meat from Brazil have gone up.

There’s already a food crisis in the U.K., coupled with a rise in obesity. Gone of the days of cooking home meals, it’s all fast food and microwave meals. The overall cost of these may increase slightly, but nothing compared to raw ingredients. It will fuel poor eating and in the long term, we’ll have obesity/health crisis to deal within a generation.

I’m no lover of the EU, working alongside them for the past 10 years has been a frustration, but the economic impacts can be devastating on the already poor/working class families.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think our EU contributions went up by about £3Bn this year just because our economy grew. It beggars belief.

If your income doubled next year you would also pay more to the exchequer Pete (unless you creatively account of course, which I'm sure you don't). That's pretty basic stuff isn't it?

 

[peteblue]

If your income doubled next year you would also pay more to the exchequer Pete (unless you creatively account of course, which I'm sure you don't). That's pretty basic stuff isn't it?

I don't get this argument Pete. Tesco sell far more to me than I do to them, but that doesn't mean I have a great deal of power in that relationship. Quite the opposite in fact. Ask your farming buddy how we would feel about OPEC playing silly buggers with oil prices and the power relationship between Britain and them because we buy most of our oil from abroad.

With regards to supply chains. Yes, they are complicated, and they're also heavily interconnected, which is why the EU has been so beneficial because they make that connectivity of both supply chains and human capital so straightforward. I'm not sure Brexiters, and with respect yourself too, get that as all you ever hear about are trade deals and tariffs, when so much of the world today relies on things that usually aren't included in tariffs.

Indeed, the various no deal emergency procedures to keep planes flying, nuclear material moving, criminal data available and so on are all prime examples of non-tariff barriers that are hugely important to a global society. Given the fool Johnson made of himself when trying to bluster his way through the GATT document with Andrew Neil, do you honestly believe he has the first clue about these things?

The difference with your Tesco analogy is that unlike Tesco and its millions of different customers, the EU only has so many countries they can sell to, and we are their largest customer by far. Tesco couldn’t give a damn if you walked away, but if 18% of Tesco’s customer base threatened to walk away their board might just be a tad concerned. Also, you sell nothing to Tesco, but if you did and you were also that 18% customer base then you do indeed have a voice in that relationship.

Boris was selectively using GATT to make a point. He may or may not fully understand it, but he will be surrounded by people who do and very often it is the ‘stupid’ question or proposal that gets these clever people to look creatively at what can be done.....

 

[peteblue]

What about the general public Pete, you know when you have an extra 40% launched onto your food because the tariffs for meat from Brazil have gone up.

There’s already a food crisis in the U.K., coupled with a rise in obesity. Gone of the days of cooking home meals, it’s all fast food and microwave meals. The overall cost of these may increase slightly, but nothing compared to raw ingredients. It will fuel poor eating and in the long term, we’ll have obesity/health crisis to deal within a generation.

I’m no lover of the EU, working alongside them for the past 10 years has been a frustration, but the economic impacts can be devastating on the already poor/working class families.

I only mentioned what could be done regarding tariffs on a U.K./EU basis. What could also be done is to remove them altogether, unilaterally, and allow EU and RoW product free access to the U.K.. or selective product free access. Now that of course would put our own producers under huge strain to compete on price and productivity, but they should be doing that anyway. In areas where they can’t and areas we wish to strategically retain there are others ways of putting up barriers other than tariffs. Environmental factors, Technological Standards etc etc can all be deployed to deter certain imports while allowing other imports that help reduce prices. I’m not suggesting that there is a simple solution to all of this, but solutions can be found with the right people addressing the correct question.....

 

[TyphooToffee]

Well there are plenty of examples both at home and abroad to illustrate this point well. Brexiters like talking about the war, so consider the aftermath of WW1, where Germany was punished, and WW2 where Germany was rebuilt, despite calls for money to be spent at home rather than there. A rising tide lifts all boats, y'know?

It's the same domestically. There are parts of the country that generate much of the wealth in the UK, and it's only right that this money is distributed so that the whole country benefits. This then feeds back into the success of the wealth generating parts. It's exactly the same across Europe, as investment into regions such as Poland has helped their economy greatly, and those regions then become more active members of the European economy, which benefits everyone.

The Esk repeatedly posted in the runup to the referendum data showing the financial benefit of EU membership, and it was a few hundred billion from memory, which is no bad return on our membership contribution imo.

I have to admit that when I voted to join the EEC I was a naive 20 year-old and thought that it was it was a vote for safely in numbers, thinking that we could always leave if it didn't turn out as expected. As I have got older I have become wiser but, understandably, a bit cynical. I was on the fence for a long time before the referendum but, now the vote went the way it did, I firmly believe that overturning it will do more harm to the constitution-wise than economically.

 

[Khalekan]

I have to admit that when I voted to join the EEC I was a naive 20 year-old and thought that it was it was a vote for safely in numbers, thinking that we could always leave if it didn't turn out as expected. As I have got older I have become wiser but, understandably, a bit cynical. I was on the fence for a long time before the referendum but, now the vote went the way it did, I firmly believe that overturning it will do more harm to the constitution-wise than economically.

We don’t have a “constitution”.

That is one of the major reasons we wound up in this mess.

And I can’t be the only one more worried about the impact of this Brexit madness on my economic wellbeing and that of my country than I am about any damage to a non existent constitution.

 

[Bluerover]

We don’t have a “constitution”.

That is one of the major reasons we wound up in this mess.

And I can’t be the only one more worried about the impact of this Brexit madness on my economic wellbeing and that of my country than I am about any damage to a non existent constitution.

...well the UK doesn't have a written constitution but it has always operated on the basis of what is called the British Constitution - essentially based on tradition, acts of Parliament and judicial record.

However, I know what you are getting at.

 

[Khalekan]

...well the UK doesn't have a written constitution but it has always operated on the basis of what is called the British Constitution - essentially based on tradition, acts of Parliament and judicial record.

However, I know what you are getting at.

Indeed.

Or......an unwritten constitution ain’t worth the paper it ain’t written on

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The difference with your Tesco analogy is that unlike Tesco and its millions of different customers, the EU only has so many countries they can sell to, and we are their largest customer by far. Tesco couldn’t give a damn if you walked away, but if 18% of Tesco’s customer base threatened to walk away their board might just be a tad concerned. Also, you sell nothing to Tesco, but if you did and you were also that 18% customer base then you do indeed have a voice in that relationship.

Boris was selectively using GATT to make a point. He may or may not fully understand it, but he will be surrounded by people who do and very often it is the ‘stupid’ question or proposal that gets these clever people to look creatively at what can be done.....

Why are those clever people not advising him now?

 

[Xizor]

Why are those clever people not advising him now?

It would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic, this brexiteer notion that there are teams of clever people waiting in the wings to sort out all the myriad complex issues. For three years, all such 'clever people' in Whitehall have been in serious damage limitation mode as they realise just how much of a disaster this whole process is but are bound by their role to attempt to deliver policy.

Meanwhile, the pro-Brexit 'clever people' have been doing stuff like moving their offices into the EU, or short selling currency, or positioning themselves for fat lucrative contracts that might be urgently required in the post-no deal 'Utopia'.

It's almost as if the type of 'clever people' that Pete is pinning his hopes on are a bunch of disaster capitalists looking to use the tumult as a way to line their own pockets amidst a backdrop of economic chaos and have no real interest in solutions that would help out the 99% of us who will be unable to do anything but suffer the wretched consequences.

But hey, blue passports I guess, so some things are looking up, right?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The difference with your Tesco analogy is that unlike Tesco and its millions of different customers, the EU only has so many countries they can sell to, and we are their largest customer by far. Tesco couldn’t give a damn if you walked away, but if 18% of Tesco’s customer base threatened to walk away their board might just be a tad concerned. Also, you sell nothing to Tesco, but if you did and you were also that 18% customer base then you do indeed have a voice in that relationship.

Lets be honest here Pete. The EU don't sell to anyone. Santander have branches around the world. Phillips operate in 100 countries around the world. Carrefour have stores in 30 countries around the world, but you know this. You know trade with Britain won't cease, and trade deals aren't about preventing or allowing trade at all, but rather making trade easier or harder. You know that's why business after business has come out saying that staying in the EU would be best for us, and that a no deal exit would be disastrous.

The thing is, I'm also inclined to think you know this isn't about economics at all. The Labour opposition to joining in the 1970s was about economics as they wanted to protect British workers from overseas competition. Tory opposition to the EU has always been about protecting British culture from overseas competition. Just as Tories opposed the Windrush generation and migration from across the (non-white parts of the) Commonwealth, now they oppose migration from the (non-western bits that they go on holiday to) parts of Europe. The economic bluster is just a front to make this seem more acceptable.

 

[TyphooToffee]

We don’t have a “constitution”.

That is one of the major reasons we wound up in this mess.

And I can’t be the only one more worried about the impact of this Brexit madness on my economic wellbeing and that of my country than I am about any damage to a non existent constitution.

Constitution was the wrong word. I meant democracy.

 

[TyphooToffee]

We don’t have a “constitution”.

That is one of the major reasons we wound up in this mess.

And I can’t be the only one more worried about the impact of this Brexit madness on my economic wellbeing and that of my country than I am about any damage to a non existent constitution.

I understand how you feel about your economic wellbeing, I was very worried about planes falling out of the sky and all the nuclear rockets launching as the year 2000 began.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I understand how you feel about your economic wellbeing, I was very worried about planes falling out of the sky and all the nuclear rockets launching as the year 2000 began.

You know that didn't happen not because the problem didn't exist, but that organisations spent huge sums on mitigating it, right?

 

[Khalekan]

I understand how you feel about your economic wellbeing, I was very worried about planes falling out of the sky and all the nuclear rockets launching as the year 2000 began.

A very flippant reply to what is an existential problem for millions across this country does you no credit.

But typical of the see no evil, hear no evil and for Gawd’s sake say no evil alternative reality Brexit supporters live in.

Here, rubbish this fellow’s concerns as well whilst yer at it.

Bank of England cuts UK growth forecast

The Bank holds interest rates steady, but warns about the impact of a no-deal Brexit.

www.bbc.co.uk