Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Frang]

That's why I like this thread. You can rely on quality intellectual debate.

The remainers don't offer intellectual debate..

Just lectures, as if they know everything there is to know about the whole situation, which is just fabrication.

 

[Kurt.]

Where did I say that? You obviously don't know anything about negotiations.

I understand enough to realise a negotiation requires open minds willing to discuss.... not hard nosers who go in with a set of demands and who won’t budge. I remember May’s rhetoric when the Brexit vote won and it was a staunch “they need us more than we need them”..... how silly does that sound now.

 

[nsno-chris]

That's why I like this thread. You can rely on quality intellectual debate.

Well you were talking bollocks. It’s hard to debate with people when they don’t know what’s going on

 

[nsno-chris]

The remainers don't offer intellectual debate..

Just lectures, as if they know everything there is to know about the whole situation, which is just fabrication.

Shut up Frank

 

[allezlesbleus]

As long as he gets us out of the EU I don’t care.......

Yes Bruce, the result of our negotiations to withdraw were about as successful as David Cameron's inept efforts. We need to get some serious negotiators in when we discuss trade, following a likely no-deal.

Do you have anyone specific in mind mate? What walls of life would they come from?

 

[allezlesbleus]

Sorry @peteblue. Quoted you by mistake!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He negotiated on the EU reform deal. It was supposed to ensure that we all voted remain but he achieved just about the square root of sod all. The point is, both Cameron and May (and their teams) were not very good (and that includes the Brexiteers in the original Withdrawal Agreement team.) We need some hard nosed professionals in there, not just MP's who think they are.

About two-thirds of nothing.

A British Prime Minister touring Europe with a begging bowl, how pathetic......was how it appeared at the time. It made me hate Cameron. But......that recent documentary on BBC of behind the scenes negotiations just befothe referendum showed events in a rather different light. It showed that he had really tried in difficult circumstances to negotiate something tangible to bring home and sell to the electorate, but the EU were pretty intransigent, he got sweet fa, and so the vote went as it did. I think the EU thought “the British will never vote to leave so we don’t need to give him anything”. So blame on both sides for how things have transpired I would say. “A mess” doesn’t even come close.

I see. So you both swallowed the media narrative of what happened and don't have the first clue what concessions he returned with.

 

[orchard]

I see. So you both swallowed the media narrative of what happened and don't have the first clue what concessions he returned with.

Did he formally state beforehand what he intended to get?

 

[jaycee]

Did he formally state beforehand what he intended to get?

400 lambert & butler light
A donkey wearing a sombrero
And a wicker wine bottle holder that looks like a horse and cart

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Did he formally state beforehand what he intended to get?

Quite.

 

[Cool_Blue]

I see. So you both swallowed the media narrative of what happened and don't have the first clue what concessions he returned with.

Please enlighten me then as to what Cameron was seeking, as you are clearly party to info that the rest of us rely on the media to supply. All I know he returned with was some kind of ‘brake’ on immigration.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Please enlighten me then as to what Cameron was seeking, as you are clearly party to info that the rest of us rely on the media to supply. All I know he returned with was some kind of ‘brake’ on immigration.

1. He wanted to secure an opt-out of any further political integration with the EU, and he secured this.
2. He wanted access to in-work benefits for EU migrants to be prohibited until they lived in the UK for four years. Once again, he secured this.
3. He wanted to prevent migrants living and working in the UK to secure child benefits for children living elsewhere in the EU. He did not secure this, but the child benefit was indexed to wherever the child lived.
4. He wanted greater acceptance that there are various currencies operating within the EU, and that non-Eurozone countries should not have to contribute to Eurozone bailouts. He secured this.
5. He wanted special treatment for the City, which he did not secure as the EU exists to provide a level playing field with regulations applied evenly.
6. He wanted to reduce regulation across the EU to enhance competitiveness, and he actually secured commitments that went beyond what he asked for.

So you were pretty much wrong, both in believing he came back with nothing, and also that he actually went there to half immigration numbers (which, incidentally, is an option already available to EU nations when new members join, but Britain, unlike Germany and France, didn't apply it with the A8 nations).

 

[Cool_Blue]

1. He wanted to secure an opt-out of any further political integration with the EU, and he secured this.
2. He wanted access to in-work benefits for EU migrants to be prohibited until they lived in the UK for four years. Once again, he secured this.
3. He wanted to prevent migrants living and working in the UK to secure child benefits for children living elsewhere in the EU. He did not secure this, but the child benefit was indexed to wherever the child lived.
4. He wanted greater acceptance that there are various currencies operating within the EU, and that non-Eurozone countries should not have to contribute to Eurozone bailouts. He secured this.
5. He wanted special treatment for the City, which he did not secure as the EU exists to provide a level playing field with regulations applied evenly.
6. He wanted to reduce regulation across the EU to enhance competitiveness, and he actually secured commitments that went beyond what he asked for.

So you were pretty much wrong, both in believing he came back with nothing, and also that he actually went there to half immigration numbers (which, incidentally, is an option already available to EU nations when new members join, but Britain, unlike Germany and France, didn't apply it with the A8 nations).

Thank you. So why on earth did he not communicate these results more clearly to the voting public? Do show me where I said “he actually went there to half immigration numbers”, as you put it. Please don’t say “you were wrong” when I clearly said no such thing. I merely used the media terminology (brake) in use at that time to describe his achievements.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thank you. So why on earth did he not communicate these results more clearly to the voting public? Do show me where I said “he actually went there to half immigration numbers”, as you put it. Please don’t say “you were wrong” when I clearly said no such thing. I merely used the media terminology (brake) in use at that time to describe his achievements.

Apologies, that's a typo on my behalf. The 't' and 'f' are quite close together

 

[abelard]

Thank you. So why on earth did he not communicate these results more clearly to the voting public?

The quality of the British media is indisputably poor, arguably as bad as in America.

British liberals would've probably had their way on Europe, had the right-wing press applied actual journalism to Brexit.

But they'd never have managed their cherished austerity with a competent and responsible media either.

Brexit is as much as anything those chickens coming back to roost - live by the sword, die by the sword.