Current Affairs EU In or Out

[abelard]

GET US OUT.


NOW

I expect that when it's all said and done, I'll have learned as much about early childhood parenting from this thread as I have about politics.

 

[Frang]

I expect that when it's all said and done, I'll have learned as much about early childhood parenting from this thread as I have about politics.

alright mush , hows your Friday going?? are you in Liverpool?

 

[tsubaki]

Rory Stewart on No Deal and WTO terms

If you ever want to understand the corrosive effect that money and lobbying have had on our politics, then look at how few votes Rory Stewart will get in the first round of voting. Of that field he is by far and away the standout candidate, the only one that has even the slightest idea that something is actually wrong.

 

[Frang]

so as many as 12 tory MP's see themselves as leader of the party...

hahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha

not a single one

 

[abelard]

alright mush , hows your Friday going?? are you in Liverpool?

Procrastinating at work on the wrong side of the Pennines. Yourself?

 

[Tubey]

Rory Stewart on No Deal and WTO terms

If this type of discussion and leadership was had in the last two years, we'd have left the EU with a sensible deal maintaining as much of the status quo as we can possibly have.

Instead, we had Theresa May being whipped along by the ERG.

Very impressive from Stewart. I still disagree with him in a big way because I don't believe any deal is better than the one we have now, so I therefore don't see the point in it, but if we had to leave then he's just eloquently spelled out why we need to do it sensibly and how no deal is ridiculous.

 

[Tubey]

If you ever want to understand the corrosive effect that money and lobbying have had on our politics, then look at how few votes Rory Stewart will get in the first round of voting. Of that field he is by far and away the standout candidate, the only one that has even the slightest idea that something is actually wrong.

He's pretty much a centre-right politician. And therefore has absolutely no chance of getting the leadership.

The lunatics are running the asylum for both major parties, except with the Tories they're pretend lunatics trying to seek favour with the actual lunatics because they've totally lost the plot.

 

[Frang]

Procrastinating at work on the wrong side of the Pennines. Yourself?

revising for my cpc , theory and hazard perception tests..

 

[orchard]

revising for my cpc , theory and hazard perception tests..

There goes my coffee...

 

[tsubaki]

He's pretty much a centre-right politician. And therefore has absolutely no chance of getting the leadership.

The lunatics are running the asylum for both major parties, except with the Tories they're pretend lunatics trying to seek favour with the actual lunatics because they've totally lost the plot.

TBF I think that is to miss the point a bit - Stewart isn't going to get anywhere because he isn't part of the club, not because of his politics. Even Corbyn, were there actually are political differences with his internal opposition, is hated more by them because he isn't one of them than because they object to anything he actually stands for.

 

[zzr45]

He's pretty much a centre-right politician. And therefore has absolutely no chance of getting the leadership.

The lunatics are running the asylum for both major parties, except with the Tories they're pretend lunatics trying to seek favour with the actual lunatics because they've totally lost the plot.

There’s an interesting piece in the Times today discussing how both of the main parties are behind the times in the way that they are dealing with how the political landscape has changed. Namely, that we are now in an era where there is much more focus on the standpoint on Brexit rather than on things such as class.

There was an example of Corbyn talking about how in Wales that a working class family in Cardiff (which voted to Remain) shouldn’t be pitted off against a working class family from Wrexham (which voted to Leave) because they are both working class. The issue of course is that class really doesn’t factor in to what’s going on.

It’s the parties that have adapted to this zeitgeist better that are now leading the conversations - so the likes of the Brexit Party, the Lib Dems (who actually came out on top of a YouGov poll on who people would vote for in an election) are performing better because of it.

Arguably, it’s why the ERG are the tail that wags the dog in the Tory party - they are playing the political game of this generation, not one of yesteryear.

It’s why a no deal PM is most likely - that will be their push for the Leaver vote. It of course leaves people such as myself who have voted Conservative for years but want to Remain out (I voted Lib Dem for the first time in my life last week.)

It’s why what Corbyn is doing is so ineffective as well - he’s trying to keep people together that don’t want to be together. The working class family in Wrexham will more than likely abandon Labour for whichever party wants to push Brexit through, the Cardiff family to whichever will aim to keep us in.

So essentially, any leadership debate is going to hinge on Brexit and who can support the most extreme version of the Leave/Remain debate. Sadly moderate voices will be lost.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

Rightly or wrongly people were given an opportunity to vote on whether to stay in the EU. Leave got the most votes. Remainers immediately turned on the leave voters accusing them of everything from being selfish, thick and gullible to being out and out racists. That's what caused the divide in the country. Remainers persistence in overturning the vote deepened that divide, as did posts like yours which are aggressive, dismissive and insulting, not to mention racist and ageist. It's something that we have come to expect from you, but it's also strengthened our resolve to leave the EU. Whereas before the majority wanted to leave with a deal, now that majority would accept a no deal situation rather than stay in the EU. They are now the only 2 options on the table and that is as much the fault of the remainers, the remain dominated parliament and the EU as it is the UK government.

Whichever happens this country is going to the dogs and it will take years, perhaps decades to recover. That doesn't seem to bother you but maybe not everybody else is as insulated as you are to the fallout. It certainly bothers me.

There is so much to unpick here.

It's odd - if the DUP and ERG had signed up to May's deal we'd be out by now - but it's somehow remainers fault for calling you thick that we are in this position.

You then go on to say that you used to want a deal but now you don't just to spite everyone else?

I agree that this country is in serious trouble on the back of this divisive vote. I think the real danger is ahead though, especially if people are willing to burn the economy to the ground rather than to concede any ground. You basically just said that you think most leavers voted thinking we would get (and wanting) a deal, but now they don't want said deal - because people have been mean to them?

How you are not directing this anger at the government? If I was a leave voter and voted wanting a deal, I'd be furious that people like Fararge were now trying to co-opt my vote for the hardest most economically damaging exit possible.

It's this hardening of views, despite all evidence, which is going to cause the most trouble.

 

[Frang]

There goes my coffee...

???????

 

[tsubaki]

There’s an interesting piece in the Times today discussing how both of the main parties are behind the times in the way that they are dealing with how the political landscape has changed. Namely, that we are now in an era where there is much more focus on the standpoint on Brexit rather than on things such as class.

There was an example of Corbyn talking about how in Wales that a working class family in Cardiff (which voted to Remain) shouldn’t be pitted off against a working class family from Wrexham (which voted to Leave) because they are both working class. The issue of course is that class really doesn’t factor in to what’s going on.

It’s the parties that have adapted to this zeitgeist better that are now leading the conversations - so the likes of the Brexit Party, the Lib Dems (who actually came out on top of a YouGov poll on who people would vote for in an election) are performing better because of it.

Arguably, it’s why the ERG are the tail that wags the dog in the Tory party - they are playing the political game of this generation, not one of yesteryear.

It’s why a no deal PM is most likely - that will be their push for the Leaver vote. It of course leaves people such as myself who have voted Conservative for years but want to Remain out (I voted Lib Dem for the first time in my life last week.)

It’s why what Corbyn is doing is so ineffective as well - he’s trying to keep people together that don’t want to be together. The working class family in Wrexham will more than likely abandon Labour for whichever party wants to push Brexit through, the Cardiff family to whichever will aim to keep us in.

So essentially, any leadership debate is going to hinge on Brexit and who can support the most extreme version of the Leave/Remain debate. Sadly moderate voices will be lost.

I couldn't disagree more with this.

Framing the population in terms of leave vs remain is an entirely false (albeit phenomenally well-funded and resourced) position to put people in, which benefits the population not one iota but which is of considerable help to the politicians who have run and ruined the country.

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - more threatening to them than the family from Wrexham, the family from Brixon, the family from Cardiff, the family from Bradford and the rest of the families and individuals that form this country of ours all recognizing who is actually to blame for all this mess. Corbyn is correct not to sign up to this "pick a side" idiocy.

 

[Frang]

There is so much to unpick here.

It's odd - if the DUP and ERG had signed up to May's deal we'd be out by now - but it's somehow remainers fault for calling you thick that we are in this position.

You then go on to say that you used to want a deal but now you don't just to spite everyone else?

I agree that this country is in serious trouble on the back of this divisive vote. I think the real danger is ahead though, especially if people are willing to burn the economy to the ground rather than to concede any ground. You basically just said that you think most leavers voted thinking we would get (and wanting) a deal, but now they don't want said deal - because people have been mean to them?

How you are not directing this anger at the government? If I was a leave voter and voted wanting a deal, I'd be furious that people like Fararge were now trying to co-opt my vote for the hardest most economically damaging exit possible.

It's this hardening of views, despite all evidence, which is going to cause the most trouble.

no no no , the DUP and the ERG saved us from signing up to an horrendous deal which would very much have kept us IN the EU