Current Affairs EU In or Out

[tsubaki]

no no no , the DUP and the ERG saved us from signing up to an horrendous deal which would very much have kept us IN the EU

Thats funny, on my ballot there was only "leave" and "remain" as an option - not "leave, as defined by a set criteria such as...."

 

[abelard]

Even Corbyn, were there actually are political differences with his internal opposition, is hated more by them because he isn't one of them than because they object to anything he actually stands for.

This. These days, even at places like Davos, it's very a la mode to make a big fuss about how attuned and sympathetic one has become to the struggles of the valiant but hapless commoner.

Of course, the solutions they come up with are almost invariably idiotic - what if health insurance but also Blockchain?/Let's teach displaced Bangladeshi farmers how to code etc. - because the one thing that is most necessary to meaningfully improving things is the one thing they will never accept: the transfer of political power away from oligarchs into the hands of everyday people.

Some of the more enlightened Holders of Capital could actually be coaxed into a slightly more egalitarian agenda than what we've been forced to endure lately (partly because they are making so much money from rent-seeking these days that they literally can't give it away fast enough!) - but only so long as they are certain that the authority to proceed or not to proceed along these lines remains entirely under their control.

A minority could just about get on board with a more constructive role for government, but only after The Economist gives them permission first, and only if it was led by some former economist or banker who'd had an epiphany after accidentally visiting Blackpool, and who looks and sounds like a TED talk.

The conflict is less over policy than it is over who wields power.

The text of the 2017 Labour manifesto was not much different from the 2015 version; what spooked them was the implication of an organised and motivated political movement no longer subject to media conditioning or enlightened leadership's control.

Of course, this only underscores why mass politics are the only way to accomplish goals of existential importance, like definancialising and decarbonising the economy - and why Elisabeth Warren types, who think solving our problems is just a matter of turning up in the capital and hiring Smart People to implement Smart Policies, are the Ned Starks of neoliberalism.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

no no no , the DUP and the ERG saved us from signing up to an horrendous deal which would very much have kept us IN the EU

No - we would have left. This is just some idiotic soundbite that Fararge and his ilk like to parrot.

May's deal had us leaving the single market and leaving the political union. No more freedom of movement and no MEP's.

How is leaving the single market, not having representation on the European Council and rather importantly not actually being a member state - not leaving the EU?

 

[zzr45]

I couldn't disagree more with this.

Framing the population in terms of leave vs remain is an entirely false (albeit phenomenally well-funded and resourced) position to put people in, which benefits the population not one iota but which is of considerable help to the politicians who have run and ruined the country.

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - more threatening to them than the family from Wrexham, the family from Brixon, the family from Cardiff, the family from Bradford and the rest of the families and individuals that form this country of ours all recognizing who is actually to blame for all this mess. Corbyn is correct not to sign up to this "pick a side" idiocy.

I understand that entirely, one hopes that the private case against Boris Johnson is a landmark in that it forces the political classes to be far more honest about their approach and sorts out the manure merchants such as Johnson, Farage et al.

It’s very sad that something that is going to change the country massively is the spark for a conversation about whether politicians need to tell the truth.

 

[abelard]

I couldn't disagree more with this.

Framing the population in terms of leave vs remain is an entirely false (albeit phenomenally well-funded and resourced) position to put people in, which benefits the population not one iota but which is of considerable help to the politicians who have run and ruined the country.

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - more threatening to them than the family from Wrexham, the family from Brixon, the family from Cardiff, the family from Bradford and the rest of the families and individuals that form this country of ours all recognizing who is actually to blame for all this mess. Corbyn is correct not to sign up to this "pick a side" idiocy.

Much as I agree with this, and hope that a politics based on this message is still electorally viable, it is starting to look an awful lot like this:

any leadership debate is going to hinge on Brexit and who can support the most extreme version of the Leave/Remain debate. Sadly moderate voices will be lost.

has become irreversible - which would be tragic and possibly fatal to the notion of a common understanding of political legitimacy in this country.

Having spent ten years in America witnessing just how bad things can get once the rot of a culture war sets in, I can't emphasise enough how much we should resist it taking hold here.

If - as seems increasingly likely - things take a similar turn for the worse here, I suspect those who've indulged in media-encouraged self-congratulatory wanking over Corbyn's failure to bridge the divide may come to regret that they didn't take compromise and dialogue more seriously, while they still had the chance.

Should the evolution of Brexit from politics to identity become permanent then this country is done for - and if this forum is anything to go by, the blame for that falls as much on Remain side as on Leave.

 

[tsubaki]

Much as I agree with this, and hope that a politics based on this message is still electorally viable, it is starting to look an awful lot like this:

has become irreversible - which would be tragic and possibly fatal to the notion of a common understanding of political legitimacy in this country.

Having spent ten years in America witnessing just how bad things can get once the rot of a culture war sets in, I can't emphasise enough how much we should resist it taking hold here.

If - as seems increasingly likely - things take a similar turn for the worse here, I suspect those who've indulged in media-encouraged self-congratulatory wanking over Corbyn's failure to bridge the divide may come to regret that they didn't take compromise and dialogue more seriously, while they still had the chance.

Should the evolution of Brexit from politics to identity become permanent then this country is done for - and if this forum is anything to go by, the blame for that falls as much on Remain side as on Leave.

exactly - I just hope that people recognize that this comes from both sides of this false debate, that the FBPE shower are as bad as (and are the same sort of people as) the Farages of this world

 

[Moomin]

Learn what 'racist' and 'ageist' means before throwing those terms out as part of a losing argument.

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7 graphs that explain how Brexit won

Britain has voted to leave the European Union - how did this happen?

www.independent.co.uk

It's not 'racist' or 'ageist' to draw from actual stats about an issue. There is clear evidence that the elderly, the well off, the self-identified white/Christians and the less educated voted for Brexit.

Retract that comment.

GET US OUT.


NOW

Which category does he fall in?

 

[Barnfred 55]

It's odd - if the DUP and ERG had signed up to May's deal we'd be out by now - but it's somehow remainers fault for calling you thick that we are in this position.

I never said this. I said that they are all at fault. Everybody who voted against the deals whether they be remainers or leavers, the government for making a total mess of the negotiations, and the EU for not allowing both he future relationship and the withdrawal agreement to be negotiated at the same time.

 

[Frang]

Which category does he fall in?

You've got a thing for me.

Reported

 

[Barnfred 55]

You then go on to say that you used to want a deal but now you don't just to spite everyone else?

When have I ever said that.? What I said was most Brexiteers wanted some sort of deal when they voted. I then went on to say that as a deal is no longer on the table, most Brexiteers would accept a no deal rather than staying in the EU. If you asked them I'm pretty sure the majority of these would still want a deal but May's deal is dead and the EU would have to agree to reopen negotiations for a deal to be agreed. I have not said that most Brexiteers actually want a no deal although there probably are some out there that do.

For me personally, I have never ever said that I want a no deal. In fact I have said exactly the opposite countless times because I think it will be painful for the country both economically and logistically. I am also the one person on this whole forum who was in favour of the May deal, not because I thought it was a good deal but I believe a deal is the only way that we can bring the country back together again. The deal has to be a compromise by both sides so nobody can be seen to be the winner, and I believe that May's deal was just that.

I also said that I believe that both staying in the EU and a no deal Brexit will be disastrous for the country.

 

[Barnfred 55]

agree that this country is in serious trouble on the back of this divisive vote. I think the real danger is ahead though, especially if people are willing to burn the economy to the ground rather than to concede any ground. You basically just said that you think most leavers voted thinking we would get (and wanting) a deal, but now they don't want said deal - because people have been mean to them?

See above. I never said that at all and never have said that.

 

[Barnfred 55]

How you are not directing this anger at the government? If I was a leave voter and voted wanting a deal, I'd be furious that people like Fararge were now trying to co-opt my vote for the hardest most economically damaging exit possible.

If you have read any of my posts in here you will see that I have directed anger at the government on many occasions, and if you watch current affairs programmes you will see that most leavers do blame the government principally for the failure of Brexit. I just happen to believe that it is not their sole fault. Some blame has to also be attached to remainers, both in and out of parliament, and indeed the EU. If they had allowed simultaneous negotiations this could all have been agreed by now.

What I have blamed remainers for is creating the divide. Okay, you can bring it back to the decision to have a referendum in the first place as none of this would have happened without it. But it was the venomous reaction against leave voters that caused the divide. All you have to do is watch Question Time to see the reaction from Brexiteers in the audience whenever a remainer brings up the old racist slur or they didn't know what they voted for. You're the ones dishing out the insults but you expect us to just sit there and take them on the chin. And then get all feisty when we react to them.

 

[Barnfred 55]

It's this hardening of views, despite all evidence, which is going to cause the most trouble.

It's the hardening of views on both sides that has caused the trouble.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

You then go on to say that you used to want a deal but now you don't just to spite everyone else?

When have I ever said that.? What I said was most Brexiteers wanted some sort of deal when they voted. I then went on to say that as a deal is no longer on the table, most Brexiteers would accept a no deal rather than staying in the EU. If you asked them I'm pretty sure the majority of these would still want a deal but May's deal is dead and the EU would have to agree to reopen negotiations for a deal to be agreed. I have not said that most Brexiteers actually want a no deal although there probably are some out there that do.

You said it here:

Rightly or wrongly people were given an opportunity to vote on whether to stay in the EU. Leave got the most votes. Remainers immediately turned on the leave voters accusing them of everything from being selfish, thick and gullible to being out and out racists. That's what caused the divide in the country. Remainers persistence in overturning the vote deepened that divide, as did posts like yours which are aggressive, dismissive and insulting, not to mention racist and ageist. It's something that we have come to expect from you, but it's also strengthened our resolve to leave the EU. Whereas before the majority wanted to leave with a deal, now that majority would accept a no deal situation rather than stay in the EU. They are now the only 2 options on the table and that is as much the fault of the remainers, the remain dominated parliament and the EU as it is the UK government.

 

[Jebus_lives]

If you have read any of my posts in here you will see that I have directed anger at the government on many occasions, and if you watch current affairs programmes you will see that most leavers do blame the government principally for the failure of Brexit. I just happen to believe that it is not their sole fault. Some blame has to also be attached to remainers, both in and out of parliament, and indeed the EU. If they had allowed simultaneous negotiations this could all have been agreed by now.

What I have blamed remainers for is creating the divide. Okay, you can bring it back to the decision to have a referendum in the first place as none of this would have happened without it. But it was the venomous reaction against leave voters that caused the divide. All you have to do is watch Question Time to see the reaction from Brexiteers in the audience whenever a remainer brings up the old racist slur or they didn't know what they voted for. You're the ones dishing out the insults but you expect us to just sit there and take them on the chin. And then get all feisty when we react to them.

This is absolute nonesense.