Current Affairs EU In or Out

[roydo]

How are we, the electorate, qualified to vote on provisions and policy related to exiting the EU. We are not, that's why we have MP's, who we consider when we elect them, are qualified to make those decisions on our behalf. That's democracy in a nutshell, we elect representatives to make decisions on our behalf. And that is why the two, the Referendum and the election of MP's are intrinsically linked.

Indeed. The public voted for something, and the MPs have collectively realised they were not qualified to understand the issue, so have decided its a stupid idea.

 

[ScoobyBlue]

Indeed. The public voted for something, and the MPs have collectively realised they were not qualified to understand the issue, so have decided its a stupid idea.

I really don't know wether you are being serious or are being sarcastic. Either way, its not all MP's who thought they were wrong but a cross party representation. Many MP's want out too!

Is that the collective noun for MP's? A "collective" of MP's or should it be a 'representation"?

 

[roydo]

I really don't know wether you are being serious or are being sarcastic. Either way, its not all MP's who thought they were wrong but a cross party representation. Many MP's want out too!

Is that the collective noun for MP's? A "collective" of MP's or should it be a 'representation"?

I am being serious, in the context that as you stated, the decision was too nuanced for most folk. On both sides. And thats why we have MPs. As you stated, to represent us. For a myriad of reasons, they have delivered us to this no mans land we occupy.

I voted Remain cos I didnt have a clue what Leave meant. Plenty voted Leave, thinking, I can only conclude, that they were confident that they knew what Leave meant. If not, they voted for something they didnt have a clue about. At least I admit it.

Think the collective is a Parliament btw.

 

[Jebus_lives]

You offered your opinion on how things should proceed in your view. A "pragmatic or preferred" option.

Where does it state that a GE is binding but a Referendum is not. Where does it state that a Referendum or THE Referendum regarding Brexit, is opinion and only advisory.

I didn't see any notification, documentation, campaign paraphernalia, tv footage or newsreel stating that the Referendum vote would be an assessment of eligible voters opinion and would only be advisory information on how we feel as a nation and if we should have another vote to leave the EU.

DO YOU JUST MAKE THIS CRAP UP AS YOU GO ALONG TO FIT IN WITH YOUR PERSONAL OPINION!

I shared the definition of Referendum with you in my previous reply. Nowhere in the definition does it say that a Referendum is a tool only to be used to gauge public opinion and as an advisory tool on peoples feelings. It is a tool to VOTE on a single political question, put to the people for a direct DECISION!

To address your last point, how was the referendum electoral fraud? If you mean the campaign prior to the vote then you have to look at both sides. Both sides made claims that couldn't stand up. The electorate have a brain, have eyes and can do their own research. If they chose to believe claims made by either side that is their decision and theirs alone. If they choose to take information on face value rather than conduct research, again that is their decision.

In a GE when a party wins but doesn't follow through with items in their manifesto that got them elected in the first place, is that electoral fraud? No, its not because they cite other issues to offset their failure to deliver. They make spending claims then after they are elected claim they don't have the money, or will have to raise taxes to get the money. If they said that during a GE campaign and put it in their manifesto, they wouldn't get elected. They tell lies, it gets them elected, they then make excuses.
If that's electoral fraud then every general election going back hundreds of years is fraudulent and we could go back to a Monarchy or go forward with a dictatorship (your pragmatic option) such as in Zimbabwe under Mugabe or presently, Venezuela under Maduro. Or possibly a communist ideology (your preferred option) such as North Korea or Cuba.

• The Representation of People Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2
• Bill of Rights 1689
• R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2016] EWHC 2768 https://www.europe-solidarity.eu/documents/Brexit20161103.pdf

There you go, happy reading.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Have you found the article yet?

I've been out and about.

https://www.electoralcommission.org...endums/campaign-spending-at-the-eu-referendum think that probably sums it up.

£19m vs £16m

 

[Jebus_lives]

I am being serious, in the context that as you stated, the decision was too nuanced for most folk. On both sides. And thats why we have MPs. As you stated, to represent us. For a myriad of reasons, they have delivered us to this no mans land we occupy.

I voted Remain cos I didnt have a clue what Leave meant. Plenty voted Leave, thinking, I can only conclude, that they were confident that they knew what Leave meant. If not, they voted for something they didnt have a clue about. At least I admit it.

Think the collective is a Parliament btw.

Its almost as though he's shouting about Democracy had any understanding whatsoever about the constitutional laws that govern the country. But that can't be the case surely?!?

 

[ScoobyBlue]

They have delivered us into this no mans land because they are not representing the people. They are representing themselves and their own preferences on this. I don't think its the peoples fault, I think its the fault of the MP's, their party leaders, their political posturings and what they can gain from a leave or remain stance.

I think your statement is a bit skewed towards leave voters not understanding what they were voting for but remain voters by and large did. You voted remain because you didn't know what leave meant, so you took the easy option because you considered remain to be the status quo. No change. I think many remain voters did the same thing.

I think a lot of leave voters maybe didn't know what they were voting for in depth but knew that they had had enough of EU meddling and decided time to get out. Many of these leave voters actually voted to join the EEC in the early 70's because they were told at the time, this was the way forward. Maybe after 40+ years they decided it was no longer the way forward. Many of them won't admit it, they won't admit it was a protest vote or a vote out of ignorance of all the facts.

But let's be honest, how many people in a general election know what they are voting for. How many people know and understand party policy and a general election manifesto, not that many. They just vote for the same reasons; I like the Leader, I like my MP, I like the status quo, i've always voted Labour/Conservative, my dad voted labour/conservative so I do, I come from a upper class/working class background so I must vote conservative/labour. Delete as appropriate.

But that's democracy, you give people a vote and you stand by it. Be that for an MP, a vote to join a thing (EEC) or a vote to leave a thing (EU)

Parliament actually includes the House of Lords too, who are unelected.

 

[roydo]

You voted remain because you didn't know what leave meant, so you took the easy option because you considered remain to be the status quo.

Quite happy to admit it, and have said so many times.

I think a lot of leave voters maybe didn't know what they were voting for

So why vote for "It" then?

had enough of EU meddling

Like what? What EU meddling impacts on your life? That the UK has not signed up for?

 

[ScoobyBlue]

Its almost as though he's shouting about Democracy had any understanding whatsoever about the constitutional laws that govern the country. But that can't be the case surely?!?

Would you like to enlighten me on constitutional law pertaining to the referendum from your recent trip through Wikipedia.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Would you like to enlighten me on constitutional law pertaining to the referendum from your recent trip through Wikipedia.

I've given you the case law and statute already in the thread.

Also if you go back to my posting around the 21st of February you'll see a number of posts regarding the Court of Appeal case regarding illegality of the referendum.

 

[ScoobyBlue]

Quite happy to admit it, and have said so many times.

No argument from me on that.

So why vote for "It" then?

Sometimes you have to step into the unknown. As a very well known American politician once said;
"There are known knowns and there are known unknowns what we don't know is the unknown unknowns"

I don't think leave voters were completely in the dark and had only unknown unknowns. they knew enough to make their own decision.

Like what? What EU meddling impacts on your life? That the UK has not signed up for?

Well, there's the argument. Yes, the UK signed up for the EU but we don't, as a nation, get to vote on EU policy, our MEP's do that on our behalf. But, a lot of EU policy is based on tariffs, quota's and compromise. Its not black and white and, quite often, this nation seems to get the crappy end of the stick.

 

[Joey66]

• The Representation of People Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2
• Bill of Rights 1689
• R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2016] EWHC 2768 https://www.europe-solidarity.eu/documents/Brexit20161103.pdf

There you go, happy reading.

Really rather watch snooker now instead..........
Boring googling taking the proverbial yet again.......

 

[Jebus_lives]

You know the Donald Rumsfeld quote is derived from this poem?

Ibn Yamin (Translated by Niayesh Afshordi) Quotes

1 quote from Ibn Yamin (Translated by Niayesh Afshordi): 'One who knows and knows that he knows… His horse of wisdom will reach the skies. One who knows, but doesn’t know that he knows… He is fast asleep, so you should wake him up! One who doesn’t know, but knows that he doesn’t know… His...

www.goodreads.com

'One who doesn’t know and doesn’t know that he doesn’t know…
He will be eternally lost in his hopeless oblivion!'

 

[roydo]

That quoted badly, happens.

But on the point "sometimes you need to take a leap into the unknown". So gamble with the country based on nothing. Sound.

The EU meddling point. "We always get the bad end of the stick". Well, like I said, tell me what has impacted on you. If its a reason you voted to leave, they must be well known to you. And really bad.

Surely that isnt difficult to do?

@scooby blue

 

[JimmyJeffers]

That quoted badly, happens.

But on the point "sometimes you need to take a leap into the unknown". So gamble with the country based on nothing. Sound.

The EU meddling point. "We always get the bad end of the stick". Well, like I said, tell me what has impacted on you. If its a reason you voted to leave, they must be well known to you. And really bad.

Surely that isnt difficult to do?

@scoobydoo

*frantically googles ‘eu meddling’