Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Can you really see the 2 sides (Tories and Labour I mean) coming together? The problem, as I see it, is that you have a parliament that is 70% remain, and they can now sniff victory. Even if May and Corbyn come up with a plan, I'm now convinced that parliament will bring an amendment to the bill insisting on a confirmatory peoples vote, and the government won't have the majority to stop this. Once this happens it will be a vote on the deal v remain, which will totally alienate maybe 70% or more of the leave supporters. It will be a landslide for Remain.

If May and Corbyn don't come up with a plan, I think parliament will once more take over proceedings and will go one of 3 options before 30 June, whatever they can get a majority on. They would be revoke article 50, a second referendum or a general election. In any event, I don't believe at this stage that the EU will allow a no deal scenario so they will allow the 31 Oct extension even if we still have no plan by the end of June.

No I stick by my prediction that Brexit will not happen, not this year anyway. And the only way it will happen in the next few years is if parliament manage to acquire a good majority of Brexit supporting MPs at the next general election. Can you see that happening?
I don't think you can really rule anything out at this stage, it's been a ridiculous journey all along.

I'm astonished that there wasn't early offers of cross party working and an attempt to gain a consensus between Labour and Conservatives who stated they would honour the result in their manifesto's (despite knowing of the very credible accusations of electoral fraud). It's largely been a distraction and an internal crisis between the Tory party and many things which should be more widely discussed are being overlooked - namely home office steafy erosion of civil liberties and circumnavigation of legal process.

I don't really know if a GE will return Brexit MPs, but people are pig headed enough to vote for a single purpose and be dammed with anything else...

I do not think, and it's clear no matter what utter fraudsters and liars like Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg will tell you, that the country does not want No Deal and nobody even entertained the idea prior to the referendum. So it falls to May, not Corbyn, to move her position to secure a deal that the EU will be happy with and parliament will back.. Otherwise it has to be a GE to change parliamentary arithmetic, a people's vote (which is my pragmatic option) or revoke (which is my preferred option).
 
What's crazy is that that guy has a lot of influence over a lot of people due to his online personality. As Sargon of Akkad he presents pseudo-intellectual arguments that don't bare any scrutiny whatsoever, but help legitimise the fringe views of people want confirmation bias of their terrible agendas.

The likes of him are very, very dangerous, because they're increasingly being gifted platforms to spread their message, where in decades gone by they would have been marginalised and laughed at.

We're circling the drain at the moment - extremism and war are the next steps.
This is just another nail in UKIPs coffin. The more extreme right wingers like this guy they bring on board the more ordinary people will move away from them.

The worrying thing for me from that article is that this guy has over a million followers. I can't believe there are a million people in the UK that believe that drivel.
 
This is just another nail in UKIPs coffin. The more extreme right wingers like this guy they bring on board the more ordinary people will move away from them.

The worrying thing for me from that article is that this guy has over a million followers. I can't believe there are a million people in the UK that believe that drivel.
He is quite popular in America. He has been on stuff like the Joe Rogan podcast and Scuffed podcast which are both very popular.
 
The extended jamboree in which 180 British servicemen and women lost their lives you mean. It's your post that would actually be laughable if it wasn't so disrespectful.

That apart, if it's a restrictive covenant in the deeds he has to take the flag down. If he wants to fly the Union Jack move to somewhere that doesn't restrict it.
You mean 47 right chief? And the extended jamboree metaphor comes from an uncle that fought in both and the the extended insurgency in Iraq. So take your high and mighty tone and jam it pal, first Gulf War was a joke. Trying to use it as a badge of honour (noticing that he doesn’t mention any N.Irish/Bosnia etc service implies he was a tour and done lad.)

He probably voted leave. You should be pen pals.
 
I don't think you can really rule anything out at this stage, it's been a ridiculous journey all along.

I'm astonished that there wasn't early offers of cross party working and an attempt to gain a consensus between Labour and Conservatives who stated they would honour the result in their manifesto's (despite knowing of the very credible accusations of electoral fraud). It's largely been a distraction and an internal crisis between the Tory party and many things which should be more widely discussed are being overlooked - namely home office steafy erosion of civil liberties and circumnavigation of legal process.

I don't really know if a GE will return Brexit MPs, but people are pig headed enough to vote for a single purpose and be dammed with anything else...

I do not think, and it's clear no matter what utter fraudsters and liars like Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg will tell you, that the country does not want No Deal and nobody even entertained the idea prior to the referendum. So it falls to May, not Corbyn, to move her position to secure a deal that the EU will be happy with and parliament will back.. Otherwise it has to be a GE to change parliamentary arithmetic, a people's vote (which is my pragmatic option) or revoke (which is my preferred option).
I disagree.

Revoke! you mean revoke the referendum result? Revoke democracy! Make a democratic vote in a democratic country null and void because you're not happy with it.

How about general elections, should we revoke those too? Maybe revoke every general election until we get back to one where you were happy with the result.

May and the Tory party in general, have engineered the whole thing to delay and delay and continue to delay until Brexit never happens. The Tories did not expect to lose the referendum, they expected a positive result! The political reporters can pontificate all they want on TV and in the press about where we should go next with this debacle but ultimately, I do not see Brexit happening without huge compromises to the EU which ties the UK to the EU apron strings on matters like the customs union, permanently.

We had a peoples vote.......It was called a Referendum! The British public made a direct decision to leave the EU. See below.

[ˌrɛfəˈrɛndəm]

NOUN
referenda (plural noun) · referendums (plural noun)

a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.

Why is a "people's vote" a pragmatic option. It's not, it's your option in the hope that another vote will produce the "right answer" and the right result, just like the Irish in 2008 on the Lisbon Treaty. Should we give 16 year old's a vote, like the Scottish did in their independence vote in the hope of cutting ties with England. What about that result, if it went the other way and they had voted for independence, should we have had another go until the Scottish electorate "got it right".


Below is an extract taken from a newspaper article at the time of the Irish vote on the Lisbon Treaty: Read the last line.

Imagine if, following the election of Barack Obama by 52.9% of American voters, the Republican party, which got just 45.7% of votes, demanded another election. Imagine if the Republicans described Obama's victory as a "triumph of ignorance" – brought about by an "unspeakable" and "ignorant" mass of people who should have been "swatted away by the forces of the establishment" – and insisted on holding a second election so that, this time, the voters could "get it right".


There would be uproar, outrage, widespread disgust at such elite disdain for the democratic process. Well, now you know how the Irish people must feel. In June this year, 53.4% of Irish voters rejected the Lisbon treaty, against 46.6% who supported it (giving the "No" camp a "sweeping victory" similar to Obama's). Yet now the Irish will be asked to vote again. EU officials' behind-doors deal to force a second referendum in Ireland reveals their utter contempt for Irish voters, and for democracy itself. It is an historic sucker punch against the sovereignty of the people.


As soon as the Irish people's ballots were counted in June, their rejection of Lisbon was treated as the "wrong" answer, as if they had been taking part in a multiple-choice maths exam and had failed to work out that 2+2=4. Now, they will be given a chance to sit the exam again, "until [they] come up with the right answer.. The notion that the Irish "got it wrong" exposes gobsmacking ignorance about democracy in the upper echelons of the EU.

The very fact that a majority of Irish people said no to Lisbon made it the "right answer", true and sovereign and final. "No" really does mean no.

In conclusion,

Democracy is only democratic if, in your opinion, we get the right result. That is not democracy, that is election result annulment, vote rigging, electoral fraud, and authoritarian, bullying, dictatorial , undemocratic , unaccountable ignorance of everything democratic.
 
The outgoing French ambassador to the US has compared the Trump administration to the court of King Louis XIV, filled with courtiers trying to interpret the caprices of a “whimsical, unpredictable, uninformed” leader.

Gérard Araud, who retires on Friday after a 37-year career that included some of the top jobs in French diplomacy, said Donald Trump’s unpredictability and his single-minded transactional interpretation of US interests was leaving the administration isolated on the world stage.

“When they say ‘America first’, it’s America alone,” Araud said in an interview with the Guardian. “Basically, this president and this administration don’t have allies, don’t have friends. It’s really [about] bilateral relationships on the basis of the balance of power and the defence of narrow American interest.”

He cautioned the UK against expecting any special treatment from Washington in post-Brexit trade talks, predicting that the administration would force London to accept US imports on US terms, such as looser standards for genetically modified organisms (GMOs).

“They [the Trump administration] are not thinking in terms of multilateral cooperation first. And secondly, they don’t have any affection towards the Europeans. They treat Europeans the way they treat the Chinese,” Araud said. “And when the British come for a free-trade agreement, there will be blood on the walls and it will be British blood. It will be GMOs breakfast, lunch and dinner.”
 
He cautioned the UK against expecting any special treatment from Washington in post-Brexit trade talks, predicting that the administration would force London to accept US imports on US terms, such as looser standards for genetically modified organisms (GMOs).

“They [the Trump administration] are not thinking in terms of multilateral cooperation first. And secondly, they don’t have any affection towards the Europeans. They treat Europeans the way they treat the Chinese,” Araud said. “And when the British come for a free-trade agreement, there will be blood on the walls and it will be British blood. It will be GMOs breakfast, lunch and dinner.”

Yep.

But some would say we will be welcomed with open arms because we used to have an Empire.

It bewilders me that most leavers just cant, or wont, recognise the modern global trading world for what it actually is. Dog eat dog.
 
Yep.

But some would say we will be welcomed with open arms because we used to have an Empire.

It bewilders me that most leavers just cant, or wont, recognise the modern global trading world for what it actually is. Dog eat dog.


And it ain’t just the American Sun King they have wirry about.



They can forget about any trade deal with the USA happen they do owt to mess with the Good Friday Agreement.
 
You mean 47 right chief? And the extended jamboree metaphor comes from an uncle that fought in both and the the extended insurgency in Iraq. So take your high and mighty tone and jam it pal, first Gulf War was a joke. Trying to use it as a badge of honour (noticing that he doesn’t mention any N.Irish/Bosnia etc service implies he was a tour and done lad.)

He probably voted leave. You should be pen pals.
First of all lad I wasn't defending the soldier. I even said he was out of order and should pull the 'kin flag down.

What I was pulling you up on was calling a war, in which 180 British servicemen and women lost their lives, an extended jamboree. I was referring to the second Iraq war not the first, but the point still stands. That metaphor, as you call it, is an insult to our armed forces and those that died.

So you can take your pen pal joke and you jam it pal.
 
I disagree.

Revoke! you mean revoke the referendum result? Revoke democracy! Make a democratic vote in a democratic country null and void because you're not happy with it.

How about general elections, should we revoke those too? Maybe revoke every general election until we get back to one where you were happy with the result.

May and the Tory party in general, have engineered the whole thing to delay and delay and continue to delay until Brexit never happens. The Tories did not expect to lose the referendum, they expected a positive result! The political reporters can pontificate all they want on TV and in the press about where we should go next with this debacle but ultimately, I do not see Brexit happening without huge compromises to the EU which ties the UK to the EU apron strings on matters like the customs union, permanently.

We had a peoples vote.......It was called a Referendum! The British public made a direct decision to leave the EU. See below.

[ˌrɛfəˈrɛndəm]

NOUN
referenda (plural noun) · referendums (plural noun)

a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.

Why is a "people's vote" a pragmatic option. It's not, it's your option in the hope that another vote will produce the "right answer" and the right result, just like the Irish in 2008 on the Lisbon Treaty. Should we give 16 year old's a vote, like the Scottish did in their independence vote in the hope of cutting ties with England. What about that result, if it went the other way and they had voted for independence, should we have had another go until the Scottish electorate "got it right".


Below is an extract taken from a newspaper article at the time of the Irish vote on the Lisbon Treaty: Read the last line.

Imagine if, following the election of Barack Obama by 52.9% of American voters, the Republican party, which got just 45.7% of votes, demanded another election. Imagine if the Republicans described Obama's victory as a "triumph of ignorance" – brought about by an "unspeakable" and "ignorant" mass of people who should have been "swatted away by the forces of the establishment" – and insisted on holding a second election so that, this time, the voters could "get it right".


There would be uproar, outrage, widespread disgust at such elite disdain for the democratic process. Well, now you know how the Irish people must feel. In June this year, 53.4% of Irish voters rejected the Lisbon treaty, against 46.6% who supported it (giving the "No" camp a "sweeping victory" similar to Obama's). Yet now the Irish will be asked to vote again. EU officials' behind-doors deal to force a second referendum in Ireland reveals their utter contempt for Irish voters, and for democracy itself. It is an historic sucker punch against the sovereignty of the people.


As soon as the Irish people's ballots were counted in June, their rejection of Lisbon was treated as the "wrong" answer, as if they had been taking part in a multiple-choice maths exam and had failed to work out that 2+2=4. Now, they will be given a chance to sit the exam again, "until [they] come up with the right answer.. The notion that the Irish "got it wrong" exposes gobsmacking ignorance about democracy in the upper echelons of the EU.

The very fact that a majority of Irish people said no to Lisbon made it the "right answer", true and sovereign and final. "No" really does mean no.

In conclusion,

Democracy is only democratic if, in your opinion, we get the right result. That is not democracy, that is election result annulment, vote rigging, electoral fraud, and authoritarian, bullying, dictatorial , undemocratic , unaccountable ignorance of everything democratic.

If a general election result isn't what someone hoped for, then they know in 5 years time they get another vote. This isn't the case with a referendum so I don't see how they are comparable in terms of how 'democratic' they are.

The referendum decision was now over 2 years ago. How is it not democratic to ask people whether they are for or against what is going to happen now that they actually have some idea what will happen?
 
Many socialist voted Out and I was one of them - Jezza really is anti EU a marxist Machiavellian..........
I get the voting out and I also get the Socialist element of why you voted out. What I don’t get is how you can voice your support for scum like Farage to deliver it for you. He may well share your wish for Brexit but surely every other thing about him is the antithesis of your Socialism?

The enemy of your enemy isn’t always your friend Joe.
 
I get the voting out and I also get the Socialist element of why you voted out. What I don’t get is how you can voice your support for scum like Farage to deliver it for you. He may well share your wish for Brexit but surely every other thing about him is the antithesis of your Socialism?

The enemy of your enemy isn’t always your friend Joe.

Even worse is, he seems to trust the whole sorry bunch of them. Based on absolutely nothing.
 
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