Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

I voted out & it had ZERO to do with immigration.

Some things such as free trade have been good but also bad, yes we can trade freely in Europe & live & work there which is something I have previously taken advantage of. But I've also lived in New Zealand where they told me they have been in recession since we joined, the place was a dairy farm for the uk & as soon as we signed up they were unable to sell to us due to the excess of products in europe ... europe dictating to us who we can trade with.

I have lost faith in the eu system & I see other countries that have as well, some as they head to the far right but that's something that will always be pushed as the reason, we are better off being the 1st to leave than being in when it all collapses as others do.

The fact that it is now being viewed as racist & anti immigration is insulting to those whose politics are on the left because the vast majority didnt vote out because of that, yes there are some that have but in some cases because of the immigration issue being thrown about before the ref they started to think that voting that way meant that & so didn't, I also know people that were undecided with the ballot paper in their hand & went with remain because they went with what they are used to & unsure what would happen with dropping out due to the way the campaigns were run i.e. the scaremongering & the immigration issue.

I'd still vote the same if we had to do it a week later following the aftermath because my reasons remain the same.

I understand how people in the city & manc feel that they got more for the regeneration from eu than our Govt & thats why they voted to remain, I dont see that where I live 1/2 way between the 2 though & from the results a great many more in this area & most of the North also feel the same way as myself.

The only quandry I do have is if we all did it as it was a way of hitting back at our govt ? on that issue I can't decide yet, I disregard Boris & Farage & their campaigns as I dont think the tories are stupid enough to give them any power, the upside if they do is it could finish them off. The Labour party should be weighing in wearing steel toecaps whilst these are down but it appears they are intent on destroying themselves as well, hopefully it will cleanse the party of all of the blairites & semi tories that are in there.

 

[Seanjd]

It is the younger people that are being raised on the estates in these families of twelve kids that grow up thinking that they won't ever be able to escape that destiny for themselves.


So many kids I knew back home were defeated by themselves

You continue to place the blame on the individual, rather than admit that there is a circumstantial problem which was not anywhere near as big a problem when workin class communities were thriving because of secure, well paid and reliable jobs.

These people are not punished by themselves. This suggests that they are mentally weaker than middle class young people who might have no problem securing the job they want. Now that's not to say working class people don't do that either, of course that's not the case. But it's less likely.

They are punished by the lack of industry, lack of jobs and more recently, a demonisation agenda from both media and politicians who use them for their own political gain.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

Their a bunch of middle class students mate. Their less dangerous than a fly

Tories crying about the map of their future being altered, the types that don't give a crap about the working class now & wont in the future either.

 

[Seanjd]

What if the jobs aren't there?

Then you move.

What if the only jobs are crap, unreliable jobs with no ways of progressing?

Did you not read the bit I said about working, saving, and going out and getting skills training.

What if the jobs are low paid and without guaranteed hours?

Take the job, save money, identify a job that is not low paid and has guaranteed hours and draw up and achieve a plan to receive the skills training you need so you can earn better money.

What skills are you gaining from this job to progress and get a better one?

In all likelihood if you don't have any qualified skills to speak of, then you're doing unskilled work. You should save some of the money you have been paid and put it towards getting trained in a skill that is in demand.

How can you save up to pay for education and skills when you're trying to support yourself or a family on less than the minimum wage?

Well you can support yourself on minimum wage and low hours. It is manageable. It isn't nice, or easy, but it is doable.

If you already have a family then you've put yourself in that position without attempting to achieve financial security before having a family and that was not a wise idea. You could have done what I'm saying above before having kids, it probably would have been wiser. I don't know what to tell you about this other than my point from before about it being a bad idea to start a family that you can't afford.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. How can you put these expectations on a massive number of deprived people looking for prospects which don't exist? It's not as easy as 'just save'.

 

[bring the ghost on]

What if the jobs aren't there?

Then you move.

What if the only jobs are crap, unreliable jobs with no ways of progressing?

Did you not read the bit I said about working, saving, and going out and getting skills training.

What if the jobs are low paid and without guaranteed hours?

Take the job, save money, identify a job that is not low paid and has guaranteed hours and draw up and achieve a plan to receive the skills training you need so you can earn better money.

What skills are you gaining from this job to progress and get a better one?

In all likelihood if you don't have any qualified skills to speak of, then you're doing unskilled work. You should save some of the money you have been paid and put it towards getting trained in a skill that is in demand.

How can you save up to pay for education and skills when you're trying to support yourself or a family on less than the minimum wage?

Well you can support yourself on minimum wage and low hours. It is manageable. It isn't nice, or easy, but it is doable.

If you already have a family then you've put yourself in that position without attempting to achieve financial security before having a family and that was not a wise idea. You could have done what I'm saying above before having kids, it probably would have been wiser. I don't know what to tell you about this other than my point from before about it being a bad idea to start a family that you can't afford.

Wow, it's all so easy, why is anyone working minimum wage crappy jobs with this kind of advice? You should definitely publish this in some sort of self-help book mate, the country would be brimming with affluence if it got out there - get off your arse, move away from your family to a new city and find yourself a boss job, love it!

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Their a bunch of middle class students mate. There less dangerous than a fly

It's not just students though mate, they themselves might be harmless but their anti democratic and have an absolute contempt for the will of the majority and that is an extremely dangerous attitude to have. If it was just middle class students (aka attention seeking idiots who probably didn't even vote in the first place) I'd be less bothered but I've seen a shockingly large amount of people who seem perfectly happy to piss away democracy just so they can have their way.

 

[Seanjd]

Not laziness. A lack of desire and the dedication needed to follow through with it. You can call it laziness if you like.

So laziness, then? Your argument is falling apart now, mate.

Do these people lack a mental characteristic which those who can find well paid jobs with prospects have? A characteristic of determination?

 

[Efcjake]

You continue to place the blame on the individual, rather than admit that there is a circumstantial problem which was not anywhere near as big a problem when workin class communities were thriving because of secure, well paid and reliable jobs.

These people are not punished by themselves. This suggests that they are mentally weaker than middle class young people who might have no problem securing the job they want. Now that's not to say working class people don't do that either, of course that's not the case. But it's less likely.

They are punished by the lack of industry, lack of jobs and more recently, a demonisation agenda from both media and politicians who use them for their own political gain.

If the jobs have left the community unfortunately there is nowt anyone can do about it. Then people should leave and go to where there are jobs.


"Punished"? I said defeated. Defeated by this perpetuated belief that they can't get out of the situation they're in. The one that you're encouraging by blaming political factors instead of personal responsibility.

There's nothing about being mentally weaker there at all. It is a culture thing. Part of the culture of growing up in poverty or working class is constantly hearing about how crap it is and how there's no prospects and it is always going to be this way, etc. Part of that culture of never getting off the estate.


"They are punished by the lack of industry, lack of jobs"

It's not punishment, it is economics. Nobody is guaranteed a job, no industry is guaranteed to survive. These things happen. At some point you have to stop moaning about it and get on with it. If there aren't enough decent jobs then do your best to save (And NO, it isn't going to happen overnight on a minimum wage no guarantee hours contract, but it can still happen) and then move to somewhere with better prospects.

 

[Efcjake]

Wow, it's all so easy, why is anyone working minimum wage crappy jobs with this kind of advice? You should definitely publish this in some sort of self-help book mate, the country would be brimming with affluence if it got out there - get off your arse, move away from your family to a new city and find yourself a boss job, love it!

WHERE DID I SAY IT WAS EASY?!?!


That's the immediate reaction. Oh, well it isn't easy so I might as well not be bothered.


You're right, it is HARD. That doesn't make it impossible.


But no instead of actively trying to improve yourself, continue to moan about how hard it is and how it should be easier. See which one works.

 

[bring the ghost on]

If the jobs have left the community unfortunately there is nowt anyone can do about it. Then people should leave and go to where there are jobs.

Wow.

 

[Efcjake]

So laziness, then? Your argument is falling apart now, mate.

Do these people lack a mental characteristic which those who can find well paid jobs with prospects have? A characteristic of determination?

Perseverance is usually it.

 

[Seanjd]

If the jobs have left the community unfortunately there is nowt anyone can do about it. Then people should leave and go to where there are jobs.


"Punished"? I said defeated. Defeated by this perpetuated belief that they can't get out of the situation they're in. The one that you're encouraging by blaming political factors instead of personal responsibility.

There's nothing about being mentally weaker there at all. It is a culture thing. Part of the culture of growing up in poverty or working class is constantly hearing about how crap it is and how there's no prospects and it is always going to be this way, etc. Part of that culture of never getting off the estate.


"They are punished by the lack of industry, lack of jobs"

It's not punishment, it is economics. Nobody is guaranteed a job, no industry is guaranteed to survive. These things happen. At some point you have to stop moaning about it and get on with it. If there aren't enough decent jobs then do your best to save (And NO, it isn't going to happen overnight on a minimum wage no guarantee hours contract, but it can still happen) and then move to somewhere with better prospects.

Sorry, I meant to use the word defeated when quoting what you wrote, not punished.

You sound drafted yourself mate. "If the jobs have left the community, unfortunately there's nothing anyone can do about it." That's it then. No blame? No questions as to why they aren't there? No fight against the cause of why they went?

My whole aegument has been based around your insistence that it's up to the individual to fix their own poverty, and those who don't aren't trying hard enough. Now you're saying if the jobs aren't there, there's nothing we can do and we have to stop moaning and get on with it.

I'm glad you've changed your mind. Good night.

 

[Seanjd]

Perseverance is usually it.

Whoa whoa. So people on benefits who struggle to hold down a well paid, regular job lack perseverance, but those with good jobs don't? This is incredible stuff. Please do explain.

 

[Efcjake]

Wow.

What do you think the migrants are doing? You can't just wait for this high paying job to get created and fall in your lap. You have to go out and do what you can to get it.

 

[bring the ghost on]

If the jobs have left the community unfortunately there is nowt anyone can do about it. Then people should leave and go to where there are jobs.

You surely must see that statements like this do not make any economic sense. If a city is left by a government to rot away ("managed decline" ring any bells?) and that city then becomes radically poorer as a result, do you genuinely believe that the answer is to say "nowt anyone can do about it - people should leave"?