Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Dymak]

Not as salty as masses of leave voters will be in the morning when they realise they have been lied to.

This realisation is going to happen tomorrow is it? And what exactly is going to make them come to this realisation?

 

[Tubey]

OK mate. So in an article that is all about Britain's exit from the EU, the reference to a points based system had absolutely nothing to do with EU immigration, and was instead a reference to non-EU immigration, and non-EU immigration only. Your interpretation of this article is underpinned by extreme bias and wishful thinking.

He literally states the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy. Control being the operative word. There is no reference to us being obliged to accept anything stipulated by the EU. Negotiations will have to take place. You keep on acting like you know the results of those negotiations already. You don't.

He does though!

It's like you can't be arsed with facts or something hahaha

 

[dandydan]

lol

So we can't trust journalists or citizens on social media at all now, according to this thread.

Basically we should just listen to Boris Johnson and nobody else.

Oh. Wait.

lol

So we should trust everything we see on social media? Because I saw this thing about a Polski sklep turning away English customers. Shall I report them to the po po?

 

[Seanjd]

OK mate. So in an article that is all about Britain's exit from the EU, the reference to a points based system had absolutely nothing to do with EU immigration, and was instead a reference to non-EU immigration, and non-EU immigration only. Your interpretation of this article is underpinned by extreme bias and wishful thinking.

He literally states the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy. Control being the operative word. There is no reference to us being obliged to accept anything stipulated by the EU. Negotiations will have to take place. You keep on acting like you know the results of those negotiations already. You don't.

Mate, I know as much as anybody else; nothing.

My entire reasoning comes from the fact that the EU will not allow a country to have access to the single market without agreeing to free movement of people. Like @Tubey said, it's enshrined. It's the same thing, their single market trading includes labour movement. Johnsons has clearly stated that he wants single market freedom, as well as saying that law implementation is the only thing that will change, as well as having his team denying any reduction of immigration. I feel like I'm repeating myself though.

Why does he start banging on about points based systems? No idea. It's a news paper, ultimately, I think he's just putting something in there to keep the anti immigration supporters happy. But, he's lied before, he will do it again.

 

[Seanjd]

This realisation is going to happen tomorrow is it? And what exactly is going to make them come to this realisation?

Because he's put it in a newspaper! Aarrghh! I can't do this anymore, night.

 

[Dymak]

Mate, I know as much as anybody else; nothing.

My entire reasoning comes from the fact that the EU will not allow a country to have access to the single market without agreeing to free movement of people. Like @Tubey said, it's enshrined. It's the same thing, their single market trading includes labour movement. Johnsons has clearly stated that he wants single market freedom, as well as saying that law implementation is the only thing that will change, as well as having his team denying any reduction of immigration. I feel like I'm repeating myself though.

Why does he start banging on about points based systems? No idea. It's a news paper, ultimately, I think he's just putting something in there to keep the anti immigration supporters happy. But, he's lied before, he will do it again.

But you are selectively taking some parts of the article as gospel, and then dismissing other parts as nonsense.

Because he's put it in a newspaper! Aarrghh! I can't do this anymore, night.

That's the same article that talks about implementing an immigration points system.

 

[ilikecheese]

The funny thing about immigration over here at least, is that the whole 'they took our jobs' thing is absolute nonsense.

No...they took the crap job you think is below you, OR they are taking a high tech engineering job that our universities can't meet the demand for jobs.

 

[Tree13]

The question was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" not should we remain or threaten to leave.

Some serious revisionism going on here. Those that voted to leave didn't really mean it, it was all a ruse to gain a negotiating advantage?

No mate, those that voted leave wanted to leave without necessarily considering the consequences - as is their right. But let's not pretend there was a different motive.

You miss the point.

I'm talking about the purpose behind the government gaining a mandate to threaten to invoke Article 50, in a situation where invoking said Article would leave the six other net contributors to the EU facing an increase in their contributions that they cannot or do not want to make.

I appreciate your point that many leave voters will not have been voting with this in mind. You are certainly right about some leave voters, possibly a majority, But I certainly voted with this factor in mind, and so were most of my leave-voting friends.

The end game here is that we are going to negotiate a better deal on staying in the EU because the other net contributors cannot afford for us to leave. Part of that better deal is going to be our exemption from the free movement policy. We couldn't get this kind of deal without first threatening to leave the EU, and we couldn't do that without holding a referendum.

 

[Dymak]

Because he's put it in a newspaper! Aarrghh! I can't do this anymore, night.

You need to read that article again. His reference to continuing to be part of a free trade agreement is said to come from Germany's BDI. He then mentions a points based immigration system in the SAME ARTICLE.

I don't know what the future will hold, but if you think that everyone who voted leave is going to have a breakdown due to that article then you are grossly mistaken.

 

[dandydan]

You need to read that article again. His reference to continuing to be part of free trade agreement is said to come from Germany's BDI. He then mentions a point based immigration system in the SAME ARTICLE.

You can't trust anything unless it's from Twitter.

 

[bobbydigital]

The funny thing about immigration over here at least, is that the whole 'they took our jobs' thing is absolute nonsense.

No...they took the crap job you think is below you, OR they are taking a high tech engineering job that our universities can't meet the demand for jobs.

From The Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ck-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs

HMRC Figures also show that EU migrants more than pay their way. Those who arrived in Britain in the last four years paid £2.54bn more in income tax and national insurance than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013-14. The Office of Budget Responsibility has estimated that their labour contribution is helping to grow the economy by an additional 0.6% a year.

The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

 

[The Esk]

You miss the point.

I'm talking about the purpose behind the government gaining a mandate to threaten to invoke Article 50, in a situation where invoking said Article would leave the six other net contributors to the EU facing an increase in their contributions that they cannot or do not want to make.

I appreciate your point that many leave voters will not have been voting with this in mind. You are certainly right about some leave voters, possibly a majority, But I certainly voted with this factor in mind, and so were most of my leave-voting friends.

The end game here is that we are going to negotiate a better deal on staying in the EU because the other net contributors cannot afford for us to leave. Part of that better deal is going to be our exemption from the free movement policy. We couldn't get this kind of deal without first threatening to leave the EU, and we couldn't do that without holding a referendum.

But what you are suggesting is no different from those who are signing petitions for a second referendum - asking the public for an opinion on one basis and then acting on another. At the same time causing huge economic damage to the UK and to Europe.

The Prime Minister promised to invoke Article 50 on the day after the referendum and that's the basis upon which everyone voted.

As much as I am against leaving the EU, there is no credible way of not doing so in terms of accepting and valuing democracy. The people have spoken whether they were correctly informed or not, given the Conservatives were elected on the back of a promise of a referendum we must follow the will of the people.

No democrat (small d) can argue differently.

 

[Tree13]

Sorry, our new overlord wants free trade, not Aussie style model.

"we are much better together in forging a new and better relationship with the EU – based on free trade and partnership"

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Norway and Switzerland got lumbered with free movement as part of their deals because the EU didn't NEED them, and so could play hardball. The EU does however need us (or, more precisely, our £8.5bn per year net contribution to their budget), which makes our bargaining position much, much stronger. Add to that our population size makes us a massive market for the EU to export and sell goods to, unlike Norway and Switzerland which have populations of 5.75 million (Norway) and 8.37 million (Switzerland), and the differences become rather obvious.

Apart from all that, you are inferring that Johnson does not want an Aussie points system simply because he has not expressly mentioned it in that specific quote. He has, of course, specifically referenced for MONTHS in almost every speech or interview he has given.

 

[Tree13]

... and we can't have free trade and partnership with the EU without agreeing to the free movement of people. Which if people were paying attention and not being stupid in the build up to the referendum, they would have known this.

Yes we can, if we negotiate for it and the EU agree to it.

 

[Brennan]

But what you are suggesting is no different from those who are signing petitions for a second referendum - asking the public for an opinion on one basis and then acting on another. At the same time causing huge economic damage to the UK and to Europe.

The Prime Minister promised to invoke Article 50 on the day after the referendum and that's the basis upon which everyone voted.

As much as I am against leaving the EU, there is no credible way of not doing so in terms of accepting and valuing democracy. The people have spoken whether they were correctly informed or not, given the Conservatives were elected on the back of a promise of a referendum we must follow the will of the people.

No democrat (small d) can argue differently.

I'm struggling to accept the justification of "democracy" when the entire way in which the vote was framed is now clearly a lie. Personally I don't see how following through with a decision taken based on false information is democracy.

Of course promises are always made and broken, but rarely on this scale and rarely are the lies this obvious and this vital to the democratic decision being taken.