Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Ron Swanson]

I do want to leave the EU as its going to collapse anyway get out now while the going is good.... too many eggs in one basket and its expensive for us as we prop them up.....

Expand on this, if you could.

And who are the 'we' that prop up the EU? Germany and France pay more than the UK do. Many countries pay more per captita and as a percentage of their GDP than we do.

And you're talking as if the UK gains nothing from the EU. Single market membership is worth more to us than the deficit of our contributions. MUCH more.

 

[Joey66]

And we have another brexiteer who refuses to answer my simple question. Option 1 or 2; which is more representative of the democratic wishes of the people in the UK in 2019?

You think the cost would be astronomical compared to, say, crashing out of the EU with no deal, for instance?! And, no, I don't think there should be a second vote in a perfect political world. In that perfect world, our government would have the balls to use parliamentary sovereignty to overturn the advisory referendum of 2016 and stop this act of self-harm in its tracks. Brexiteers talk of sovereignty and democracy yet want our parliamentary democracy to crash out of the EU based on an ill-informed plebiscite. But seeing as our parliament is so utterly useless, a second referendum that offers us a choice between remaining and no-deal brexit seems to be the only option left.

As I've said before, if every major decision in the UK was down to plebiscite, based on opinion polls, we'd have been hanging people up until 2015 and Britain would've been a much worse place for gays and women in the past 60 years.

And for the record, the SNP have and continue to push for a second indyref since the first one as it is their mandate to do so. In 2017, the Scottish parliament voted for a second indyref, for example. Theresa May blocked that on the grounds that 'now is not the time for a second vote' because of Brexit. On her word, post-Brexit Britain should prepare itself for a second Indyref.

There is no question to answer other than you are a sore loser - the only referendum questions I would want on the ballot paper are -
Leave with a deal or Leave with no deal hows that sir.......

 

[Joey66]

Expand on this, if you could.

And who are the 'we' that prop up the EU? Germany and France pay more than the UK do. Many countries pay more per captita and as a percentage of their GDP than we do.

And you're talking as if the UK gains nothing from the EU. Single market membership is worth more to us than the deficit of our contributions. MUCH more.

EU CRAP ORGANISATION,,,,.......

 

[Ron Swanson]

To "put it back to the people" would be a staggering and quite frankly disgraceful disrespect to the democratic process which was agreed by all parties and which had a clear winner. Now I understand the 'lies' that were prevelent in the Leave campaign but let's be honest, most of those who voted leave were more bothered about stopping mass immigration, not saving a few quid for the NHS.

I don't know how this will play out, but the will of the people must be upheld. Those demanding a new vote should be ashamed of themselves, putting their personal desires ahead of those who they represent. Disgusting.

Imagine having to work with an alleged Jew-hater (and people on here talk about Trump being racist, yet support Corbyn) leader of the opposition to have to find a solution to Brexit.

So if the people of 2019 vote to remain, this is an affront to democracy? Tell me how that works.

 

[Khalekan]

To "put it back to the people" would be a staggering and quite frankly disgraceful disrespect to the democratic process which was agreed by all parties and which had a clear winner. Now I understand the 'lies' that were prevelent in the Leave campaign but let's be honest, most of those who voted leave were more bothered about stopping mass immigration, not saving a few quid for the NHS.

I don't know how this will play out, but the will of the people must be upheld. Those demanding a new vote should be ashamed of themselves, putting their personal desires ahead of those who they represent. Disgusting.

Sam......17 million out of a total population of circa 63 million voted to leave.

And even that was only one million more than voted to stay

It was a narrow enough margin and to describe it as the “will of the people” is to grossly over exaggerate the outcome.

It was also a blind vote...people are now better informed as to what they would be voting for.

So any MP calling for a new vote is doing so on my behalf and neither that MP nor me has owt to be “ashamed” off.

 

[The binman chronicles]

To "put it back to the people" would be a staggering and quite frankly disgraceful disrespect to the democratic process which was agreed by all parties and which had a clear winner. Now I understand the 'lies' that were prevelent in the Leave campaign but let's be honest, most of those who voted leave were more bothered about stopping mass immigration, not saving a few quid for the NHS.

I don't know how this will play out, but the will of the people must be upheld. Those demanding a new vote should be ashamed of themselves, putting their personal desires ahead of those who they represent. Disgusting.

The government has had two years to come up with a decent deal and failed miserably. There is absolutely nothing wrong in saying in the absence of a deal do you agree to no deal exit or remain. It isn't the same question as the first. You also realise that the house is trying to come up with a possible Norway deal that could still give the same immigration as there is now (with added no say when countries like Turkey join the EU), so another referendum actually might help the leavers out here by rejecting such a deal if they so wish. Fed up by the more democracy is actually somehow less.

If leavers want a no deal brexit prove it by accepting a new referendum on that point and vote for it.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

So if the people of 2019 vote to remain, this is an affront to democracy? Tell me how that works.

2019 people? The vote is done, finished. The result is clear. There was one winner. No other vote exists or should exist. It's sore loser politicians putting their own personal agendas and careers over the will of their constituents - quite frankly unacceptable.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

Sam......17 million out of a total population of circa 63 million voted to leave.

And even that was only one million more than voted to stay

It was a narrow enough margin and to describe it as the “will of the people” is to grossly over exaggerate the outcome.

It was also a blind vote...people are now better informed as to what they would be voting for.

So any MP calling for a new vote is doing so on my behalf and neither that MP nor me has owt to be “ashamed” off.

And that was a majority of those who voted, just like it was the will of (the majority of) the people for Donald J Trump to become US President.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

The government has had two years to come up with a decent deal and failed miserably. There is absolutely nothing wrong in saying in the absence of a deal do you agree to no deal exit or remain. It isn't the same question as the first. You also realise that the house is trying to come up with a possible Norway deal that could still give the same immigration as there is now (with added no say when countries like Turkey join the EU), so another referendum actually might help the leavers out here by rejecting such a deal if they so wish. Fed up by the more democracy is actually somehow less.

If leavers want a no deal brexit prove it by accepting a new referendum on that point and vote for it.

I vote Labour, just to put it out there.

But Theresa May came into an impossible situation. And she was the only person willing to take the task on. Imagine having to sort out a Brexit under such pressure from fellow MPs trying to bend and twist every rule possible to get a re-vote because they didn't get the result they personally wanted. Even many, many MPs from her own party.

If there is to be another vote I hope the leavers win by an even greater majority than last time.

To me, it matters not one bit what happens, and will affect me in no way, shape or form. But I would like to see the democratic process upheld and that is all.

 

[Ron Swanson]

And that was a majority of those who voted, just like it was the will of (the majority of) the people for Donald J Trump to become US President.

Now you're either trolling or uninformed. Trump lost the popular vote by around 3m

 

[Khalekan]

And that was a majority of those who voted, just like it was the will of (the majority of) the people for Donald J Trump to become US President.

Correct.

It was the majority of the people who voted.

And it was very close.

So in no way can it be described as the “will of the people” as if it was some popular movement supported by the overwhelming, or even by a substantially large, majority of people in the country.

And BTW.....Donald J Trump did not get the most votes in the US election.

More people actually voted for Hilary.....so by your standard, the “will of the people” in America was not carried out

 

[Ron Swanson]

There is no question to answer other than you are a sore loser - the only referendum questions I would want on the ballot paper are -
Leave with a deal or Leave with no deal hows that sir.......

See, you can't answer it because you know there is only one right answer. Which goes to show that you aren't interested at all in the democratic will of the people but rather are scared that a more informed public will vote remain.

And I'll do perfectly well from brexit, personally, a weaker pound means I earn more and an Irish passport keeps my freedom of movement. I'm worried for the country.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

Now you're either trolling or uninformed. Trump lost the popular vote by around 3m

Trump won the Presidency according to the laws and rules of the US.

The leavers won the referendum according to the laws and the rules of the UK.

It's a bit childish to accuse those who disagree with your opinions as trolls, by the way.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

Correct.

It was the majority of the people who voted.

And it was very close.

So in no way can it be described as the “will of the people” as if it was some popular movement supported by the overwhelming, or even by a substantially large, majority of people in the country.

And BTW.....Donald J Trump did not get the most votes in the US election.

More people actually voted for Hilary.....so by your standard, the “will of the people” in America was not carried out

See post above.

A second referendum cannot happen. Where does it stop? The next General Election? Re-vote if a certain party doesn't win?

 

[The binman chronicles]

To me, it matters not one bit what happens, and will affect me in no way, shape or form. But I would like to see the democratic process upheld and that is all.

Democracy isn't fixed though, we had two GEs in the space of a couple of years and could easily had another. If we leave the EU the Scots will get another once in a lifetime referendum to leave the UK. Things can change that should lead to reconsideration. This whole saga may lead to a further anti-establishment backlash that pushes people to leave and if the UK backs a no deal fair enough, but least no one can turn around and say I didn't know what I voted for. Now that statement affronts the leavers who did know, but there were people who just believed in what they were fed. Everyone deserves to know in black and white what this means.

It's like the question last time was put do you want to leave the EU? Therefore a Norway deal would meet the demands of that the question asked but we would be in a worse situation than before and not what anyone actually voted for. The campaign kept this as ambiguous as possible to not make one group or another rule out voting for brexit. Just an example of the underhand tactics.