Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Frang]

In it's own special way, this is the most honest Brexit post of them all.

It really only makes sense, at this point, as a form of religion.

How the hell should I know why it will work? I just feel it in my bones.

Like Peter Pan, Brexit will fly, if only enough of us believe it will fly.

It's like a national rain dance.



To be clear, I have never called on us to understand the mind of the @peteblue @Old Blue 2 Joey66 Brexiteer - those minds are obvious, impermeable, and immutable, and in any case, not what swung the election.

What I am suggesting is that we need to understand why Brexit appealed to so many desperate, alienated people - and why those championing Remain did not.

You see Brexit as the disease itself, but its only just a symptom. And you don't seem willing to attempt to cure what actually ails this country, or even to grapple with why so many everyday voters mistrust if not despise people like you (and I). But you really need look no further than your own posts on Universal Credit, for example, if you'd like some clues. The haughtiness and disdain for the suffering caused by your own politics is remarkable.



You still don't seem to realise that Leave lost the the election. The pigswill has already been sold to the nation. It is incumbent, obviously, upon us and not them if we want to win it back. How are you going to do that? What are you willing to offer instead? All I see is sneering at people's desperation, or preposterously blaming "the civil service" (as if that in any way addresses the issue), or mocking the rising appeal of conspiracy theories (as though, after Iraq and the financial crisis, the responsibility of the "responsible" class for making them so plausible wasn't obvious).

Leave offered an alternative - the only alternative, however absurd and farcical, to the status quo. And the status quo has failed. That argument has been lost. Just look at how your spirit animal Macron is doing these days. Do you really still think we can just put all just let bygones be bygones, put Humpty Dumpty together again, dust off our copies of The Lexus and the Olive Tree and pretend its the nineties again? I'm sure you can proudly reel off an arsenal of statistics about car factories, or the net positive of EU immigration on GDP/capita, but the point is that that would be missing the point.

How are we, "metropolitan liberal elites" in the parlance of our times, going to tell people a better story. What better vision of society are we proposing? Absent that, the real question swing voters are pondering is less "how will the NHS be helped by Brexit?" but "how will the NHS be helped by maintaining the status quo?"

And so far, your only answers are "it's very complicated" and "the NHS is already great", which is a) obvious political suicide and b) only true if you benefit from and are committed to maintaining the status quo.

The core issue is not so much why the millions of people we've driven to despair since 2010 trusted in Brexit, but why they no longer trust people like you and I, and why so many people like you (but not I) still stubbornly persist in the delusion that there isn't even really an underlying problem that needs solving, other than that the people who disagreed with us in 2016 are all morons.

The first step is always admitting that there is a problem, but I'm not sure you're even ready for that yet.

Great Post..

From my standpoint I think most of us (leavers) want social parity rather than seeing the divide grow ever larger and larger.. The flood of cheap EU labour has created this feeling.

 

[orchard]

 

[abelard]

Great Post..

cheers, but...

The flood of cheap EU labour has created this feeling.

just like that, I'm back on team @Bruce Wayne ; )

From my standpoint I think most of us (leavers) want social parity rather than seeing the divide grow ever larger and larger..

if, two years on, you still believe that this is remotely likely, or that this is why Gove, and Rees-Mogg, and Johnson, and Davis, and Patel et al support Brexit, then you really do need to start reading more... or better...

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In it's own special way, this is the most honest Brexit post of them all.

It really only makes sense, at this point, as a form of religion.

How the hell should I know why it will work? I just feel it in my bones.

Like Peter Pan, Brexit will fly, if only enough of us believe it will fly.

It's like a national rain dance.



To be clear, I have never called on us to understand the mind of the @peteblue @Old Blue 2 Joey66 Brexiteer - those minds are obvious, impermeable, and immutable, and in any case, not what swung the election.

What I am suggesting is that we need to understand why Brexit appealed to so many desperate, alienated people - and why those championing Remain did not.

You see Brexit as the disease itself, but its only just a symptom. And you don't seem willing to attempt to cure what actually ails this country, or even to grapple with why so many everyday voters mistrust if not despise people like you (and I). But you really need look no further than your own posts on Universal Credit, for example, if you'd like some clues. The haughtiness and disdain for the suffering caused by your own politics is remarkable.



You still don't seem to realise that Leave lost the the election. The pigswill has already been sold to the nation. It is incumbent, obviously, upon us and not them if we want to win it back. How are you going to do that? What are you willing to offer instead? All I see is sneering at people's desperation, or preposterously blaming "the civil service" (as if that in any way addresses the issue), or mocking the rising appeal of conspiracy theories (as though, after Iraq and the financial crisis, the responsibility of the "responsible" class for making them so plausible wasn't obvious).

Leave offered an alternative - the only alternative, however absurd and farcical, to the status quo. And the status quo has failed. That argument has been lost. Just look at how your spirit animal Macron is doing these days. Do you really still think we can just put all just let bygones be bygones, put Humpty Dumpty together again, dust off our copies of The Lexus and the Olive Tree and pretend its the nineties again? I'm sure you can proudly reel off an arsenal of statistics about car factories, or the net positive of EU immigration on GDP/capita, but the point is that that would be missing the point.

How are we, "metropolitan liberal elites" in the parlance of our times, going to tell people a better story. What better vision of society are we proposing? Absent that, the real question swing voters are pondering is less "how will the NHS be helped by Brexit?" but "how will the NHS be helped by maintaining the status quo?"

And so far, your only answers are "it's very complicated" and "the NHS is already great", which is a) obvious political suicide and b) only true if you benefit from and are committed to maintaining the status quo.

The core issue is not so much why the millions of people we've driven to despair since 2010 trusted in Brexit, but why they no longer trust people like you and I, and why so many people like you (but not I) still stubbornly persist in the delusion that there isn't even really an underlying problem that needs solving, other than that the people who disagreed with us in 2016 are all morons.

The first step is always admitting that there is a problem, but I'm not sure you're even ready for that yet.

A long post and I will attempt to answer appropriately before going to work. With regards to understanding the leave vote, I think a few things things stand out. Firstly, 'the establishment' have done a god awful job of describing what the EU actually is and how it affects our lives. Indeed, it's been the easy scapegoat for explaining many of the woes caused by domestic policy decisions, as blaming AN Other is always easier than taking responsibility yourself. I would also argue that this same rationale applies for globalisation more generally, and it is almost a curse of politics that whomever is in opposition has to paint the world in the bleakest terms, with only a new government (them) being able to solve things. It has led to an inability to accept what are real and substantial improvements to life on this planet as a result of the 'liberal consensus'.

Secondly, the various attempts to understand who the leave vote are, why they voted leave and what they hope to change when we leave have been dismissed on here as nonsense, largely I suspect because those people don't like the conclusions that were reached. If we reach beyond Pete et al however and absorb the consensus that for many leave voters, it was a protest led by disenfranchisement against a system they felt wasn't working for them. I can accept that, and the amount of support offered to individuals and communities that are 'left behind' has been shameful for decades now. Indeed, I've published various thoughts publicly saying just that, but I'm not seeing anything in Brexit that promises to remedy any of those ills. Indeed, with the risk of technological disruption to livelihoods perhaps greater than ever before, it's still quite startling to see the lack of any activity in this area. I don't think it's dismissing it to say that this is very hard to do, as there are sadly precious few examples of post-industrial communities managing to refind themselves in new ways, but to suggest that Brexit will help is foolhardy in the extreme.

Thirdly, my views on the NHS are as a direct result of numerous projects to try and improve it that struggled enormously to gain traction. These weren't flying car like initiatives, but rather simple things that people take for granted in many other walks of life. I think to accept the complexity involved is to be honest with people and more respectful than to tout the latest silver bullet like the snake oil salesmen that are populating politics in much of the world today.

Lastly, the media have to take a degree of accountability in all of this as well. Whilst I'm sceptical of the role played by deliberate Russian-led misinformation campaigns, there is nonetheless a whole lot of stuff printed in the mainstream media that is utter garbage, and this has sadly led to a public that is misnformed on a whole array of issues. Sadly it plays into the hands of populists and their silver bullets to paint more considered people as charlatans as then it allows them to ride in on their 'change is easy' horse to save the day without ever having to bother explaining how it will all work. That approach largely works because people lack the time, nor often the inclination, to explore these issues in depth, so instead rely on their gut to guide them. That sadly leaves them open to crooks who appeal to their emotions rather than their brains. How that can be fixed I really don't know, especially as, if this campaign is any guide, there is enormous confirmation bias going on that leads to absolutely any information that doesn't conform to their world view being discounted.

There is a massive problem facing western society, but I really have no idea how to go about solving it.

 

[Frang]

cheers, but...



just like that, I'm back on team @Bruce Wayne ; )



if, two years on, you still believe that this is remotely likely, or that this is why Gove, and Rees-Mogg, and Johnson, and Davis, and Patel et al support Brexit, then you really do need to start reading more... or better...

Complete disillusionment got us this far.. So let's see what happens

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

@OnlyBlueWillDo it might serve you well to read through some of Chris' posts in this thread.

I don't believe in project fear mate, it's fake news, yes there would be disruption in the movement of goods, but there would soon be solutions evolved to tackle it on both sides of the channel, remember, we buy more than we sell, while we are hurting, they are hurting too.

 

[orchard]

Glad to see the Crazies have mustered a tag-team.

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

More project fear scaremongering incoming from the Treasury in a bit, I mean as if anyone with sane mind would would listen to them, they've been wrong more times than Koeman has.

 

[Frang]

A long post and I will attempt to answer appropriately before going to work. With regards to understanding the leave vote, I think a few things things stand out. Firstly, 'the establishment' have done a god awful job of describing what the EU actually is and how it affects our lives. Indeed, it's been the easy scapegoat for explaining many of the woes caused by domestic policy decisions, as blaming AN Other is always easier than taking responsibility yourself. I would also argue that this same rationale applies for globalisation more generally, and it is almost a curse of politics that whomever is in opposition has to paint the world in the bleakest terms, with only a new government (them) being able to solve things. It has led to an inability to accept what are real and substantial improvements to life on this planet as a result of the 'liberal consensus'.

Secondly, the various attempts to understand who the leave vote are, why they voted leave and what they hope to change when we leave have been dismissed on here as nonsense, largely I suspect because those people don't like the conclusions that were reached. If we reach beyond Pete et al however and absorb the consensus that for many leave voters, it was a protest led by disenfranchisement against a system they felt wasn't working for them. I can accept that, and the amount of support offered to individuals and communities that are 'left behind' has been shameful for decades now. Indeed, I've published various thoughts publicly saying just that, but I'm not seeing anything in Brexit that promises to remedy any of those ills. Indeed, with the risk of technological disruption to livelihoods perhaps greater than ever before, it's still quite startling to see the lack of any activity in this area. I don't think it's dismissing it to say that this is very hard to do, as there are sadly precious few examples of post-industrial communities managing to refind themselves in new ways, but to suggest that Brexit will help is foolhardy in the extreme.

Thirdly, my views on the NHS are as a direct result of numerous projects to try and improve it that struggled enormously to gain traction. These weren't flying car like initiatives, but rather simple things that people take for granted in many other walks of life. I think to accept the complexity involved is to be honest with people and more respectful than to tout the latest silver bullet like the snake oil salesmen that are populating politics in much of the world today.

Lastly, the media have to take a degree of accountability in all of this as well. Whilst I'm sceptical of the role played by deliberate Russian-led misinformation campaigns, there is nonetheless a whole lot of stuff printed in the mainstream media that is utter garbage, and this has sadly led to a public that is misnformed on a whole array of issues. Sadly it plays into the hands of populists and their silver bullets to paint more considered people as charlatans as then it allows them to ride in on their 'change is easy' horse to save the day without ever having to bother explaining how it will all work. That approach largely works because people lack the time, nor often the inclination, to explore these issues in depth, so instead rely on their gut to guide them. That sadly leaves them open to crooks who appeal to their emotions rather than their brains. How that can be fixed I really don't know, especially as, if this campaign is any guide, there is enormous confirmation bias going on that leads to absolutely any information that doesn't conform to their world view being discounted.

There is a massive problem facing western society, but I really have no idea how to go about solving it.

I see brexit as the UK pressing the restart button..

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I don't believe in project fear mate, it's fake news, yes there would be disruption in the movement of goods, but there would soon be solutions evolved to tackle it on both sides of the channel, remember, we buy more than we sell, while we are hurting, they are hurting too.

See @abelard , we're fortunate enough to have someone here who as a Blue will hopefully gain an automatic level of trust, and who is also on the inside of discussions on the potential impact of this, and the plans to cope with any changes that are afoot. Yet, despite that, his opinions are discounted because they don't conform to what @OnlyBlueWillDo already believes. Damned if I know how you go about changing such intransigence.

 

[Frang]

See @abelard , we're fortunate enough to have someone here who as a Blue will hopefully gain an automatic level of trust, and who is also on the inside of discussions on the potential impact of this, and the plans to cope with any changes that are afoot. Yet, despite that, his opinions are discounted because they don't conform to what @OnlyBlueWillDo already believes. Damned if I know how you go about changing such intransigence.

Bruce I admire your very well informed opinion, seriously a lot of what you say resonates with me, but I honestly think our nation will be much better off without the constraints of dealing directly or taking orders from an EU collective that has Zero time for Britain

 

[orchard]

Bruce I admire your very well informed opinion, seriously a lot of what you say resonates with me, but I honestly think our nation will be much better off without the constraints of dealing directly or taking orders from an EU collective that has Zero time for Britain

What orders mate?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce I admire your very well informed opinion, seriously a lot of what you say resonates with me, but I honestly think our nation will be much better off without the constraints of dealing directly or taking orders from an EU collective that has Zero time for Britain

I wouldn't wish to paint this as a consensus across the EU, but as I've said before, every EU official I've spoken to since the vote has expressed sadness more than anything, and they enormously respect the many things of which Britain can be proud. As (I think) Barnier said recently, this is really a lose-lose for both sides.

 

[Frang]

What orders mate?

Daft laws and such like..

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

See @abelard , we're fortunate enough to have someone here who as a Blue will hopefully gain an automatic level of trust, and who is also on the inside of discussions on the potential impact of this, and the plans to cope with any changes that are afoot. Yet, despite that, his opinions are discounted because they don't conform to what @OnlyBlueWillDo already believes. Damned if I know how you go about changing such intransigence.

Solutions will be found very quickly to the movement of goods on both sides of the channel, it is in both sides interests to do so.

All the fresh produce we import, are the EU going to let all those businesses/farmers go to the wall because of delays in goods coming in?

The deal being offered by May is a testament to her negotiating prowess, look how fast the EU have agreed to it, she's trying to push a bad deal on the country to save her own face basically.