Current Affairs EU In or Out
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The architect of Article 50, the British peer Lord Kerr, is clear that revoking the notification to leave the EU is entirely up to us.
And key European leaders have said that we can change our minds:
Emmanuel Macron, President of France, said in January: “I do respect this vote, I do regret this vote, and I would love to welcome you again.”
Donald Tusk, European Council president, said in January that Europeans’ “hearts are still open” to “our British friends” to remain in the EU.
Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, told MEPs in January: “If the British people, the British parliament, the British government, wish for another way than Brexit, we would be prepared to discuss it. We are not throwing out the British, we want them to stay.”
Antonio Tajani, President of the European Parliament says: “If the UK wanted to stay, everybody would be in favour. I would be very happy.”
Leo Varadkar, Irish Taoiseach says: “The door remains open for the UK to stay in the European Union.”
We would however need the agreement of the EU27 to extend the deadline of article 50 to allow us to progress the options through our own internal domestic democratic process.
Lets look at this statement a bit closer.
Yes we lob billions at the EU every year for inclusion in the EU budget, but what you have failed to highlight is the money we get back from the EU in the form of our UK rebate, or the huge amount we receive in investment in the UK through EU funds.
In 2016 our contribution to the EU budget was £18.9bn. However, we got £5.2bn of this back in the UK rebate and we also received an additional £5.6bn of EU funds in the form of both public and private investment.
The actual net amount we sent to the EU in 2016 was £8.1bn, which worked out at £156m a week. And the reality is that as an EU member state the UK controls more than 98% of its public expenditure.
Our contribution to the EU should be weighed against the financial benefits it results in. The Confederation of British Industry estimates that EU membership is worth £3,000 a year to every British family — a return of nearly £10 for each £1 we pay in.
EU membership also allows us to live, work, study, travel, retire and do business anywhere across 27 other countries and have frictionless trade with our most important trading partners.
Now lets have a closer look at another of your statements
The European Commission doesn’t make laws. It only makes proposals, which are then debated, amended and passed (or rejected) by elected national governments and directly-elected MEPs.
In any case, Commissioners themselves are accountable to the European Parliament, which elects its president, approves its appointment and can dismiss it by a vote of no confidence.
We elect members of the European Parliament and if they’re not happy with legislation then it either doesn’t pass or they can amend it. Every five years UK voters have the opportunity to boot out their MEPs and replace them, if they wish, in European parliamentary elections.
So there you have it - you don't even know why you voted to leave the EU...so how about YOU stop talking twaddle!
here it is mate , like i said cant see it having time to go through both are parliament and the EU in time don't forget they are still in talks so that will take months out of the process ,
plus this hasn't been done before so, its a cert there would be delaying tactics from those that didn't want it as well to get us past the march deadline.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf
I'm fairly certain that we will maintain access to all of the things we've committed funds to. That's what the whole debate around the daftly named 'divorce bill' has been about. Horizon2020 runs, as you might expect, until 2020, and we will have committed funds until that time, so will retain access. I suspect we haven't done so for the next phase from 2020-2027, so will lose that access. That's as I understand it.
It's been said numerous times before. I'd love to think it wouldn't fall on deaf ears for the umpteenth time, but alas...
The following is from the University of York btw. Good job we'll have £300 million equivalent to spend on the NHS innit.
"NHS reliance on EU staff in numbers – full scale of Brexit risk revealed
Winter is well on the way, and with it, the NHS continues to face ongoing staffing pressures – with falling numbers of nurses and increasing vacancy rates for many clinical and non-clinical roles.
Applications to study nursing are also down – hit by the double whammy of UK students facing fees instead of bursaries and EU students facing Brexit. And with the UK set to leave the EU, things could go from bad to worse – as new analysis from The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (BIJ) finds that some key hospitals in England depend on the European Union for up to one in five staff, and even higher proportions of doctors and nurses.
The report also reveals that senior figures in the NHS have warned that recruitment from Europe has dried up, with potential knock-on effects on waiting times, operating theatre capacity and beds.
The hardest hit
In the NHS, 63,000 staff – 5.6% of the total workforce – are from EU countries, including 10% of doctors and 7% of nurses.
Recent research reports from both The BIJ and the House of Commons Library, which give more detail on regional variations, show hospitals in London and the south-east are particularly reliant on EU staff. In London, 11% of staff are nationals of other EU countries compared with just 2% in North East of England.
In 92 trusts, more than 10% of doctors or nurses are from the EU. Shutterstock
The Royal Brompton is the hospital most reliant on EU staff, with 28% of doctors and 27% of nurses from the EU. Overall, in a third of health trusts, EU nationals make up more than one in ten medical staff. And in over a fifth of trusts they make up more than one in ten nurses and health visitors.
The EU effect
Since the EU referendum, the percentage of NHS staff (for whom nationality is known) has changed apparently little, but there are nevertheless worrying trends beneath the headline figure. Between 2015 and 2016, 11% of those joining the NHS were EU nationals, falling to 9% in 2016-2017 – and to 7.9% in 2017 to 2018.
The number of doctors who are recorded EU nationals has been stable since the EU referendum at around 9.8%, but for nurses the percentage of NHS joiners who were from the EU halved from 19% in 2015-2016 to 7.9% in 2017-2018, and of those leaving the NHS, 9% were EU nationals in 2015-2016 rising to 13% in 2017-2018.
Read more: Brexit is not good news for the NHS – here's why
In social care, over 100,000 staff (around 8% of the total workforce) are EU nationals from outside the UK. There are real concerns in this sector too, particularly since the recent migration advisory committee report, which recommended no preferential treatment for EU citizens after Brexit, and cutting visas for lower skilled workers – which would include those working in social care.
Although the committee was “seriously concerned” about the social care sector, it believes that improving pay and working conditions would attract a UK workforce. Although true, this may be unhelpful to local authorities, who are already straining to maintain services in the face of long years of budget cuts. To fill future social care vacancies with UK workers could require a 20% pay increase, according to estimates by the Resolution Foundation.
Brexit damage
It’s clear that Brexit is already harming the NHS. And as the uncertainty over what will happen when Britain leaves the EU accelerates the trends towards staffing shortages that were already well underway, it’s not surprising the recent People’s Vote march in London saw such a high turnout of people calling for a referendum on any Brexit deal. The British Medical Association, Royal College of Nurses and Royal College of Midwives have all called for a vote on the final deal, with concerns that Brexit could jeopardise safe patient care.
Protests calling for the government to save the NHS. Shutterstock
Before the 2016 EU referendum, health economist Andy Street, and I wrote on “the truth about migrants and the NHS”. This responded to misinformed anecdotes about inward EU migration creating strains on the NHS, and to the MP Sarah Woollaston’s insightful comment that “if you meet a migrant in the NHS, they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue”.
We pointed out the “healthy migrant” effect, which means that inward migrants, from the EU and further afield, are more likely to be working and less likely to be ill. We also explored the NHS’s reliance on staff, particularly clinical staff, trained from overseas.
Two years later, we approach with trepidation an imminent chaotic Brexit with uncertain effects on many parts of society – not least on our health. Reports of government instructions to stockpile medicines in advance of Brexit are alarming, but as this latest analysis shows, the most concerning long-term impacts may well be yet to come."
Source: https://theconversation.com/nhs-rel...ers-full-scale-of-brexit-risk-revealed-105326
"NHS reliance on EU staff in numbers – full scale of Brexit risk revealed
Winter is well on the way, and with it, the NHS continues to face ongoing staffing pressures – with falling numbers of nurses and increasing vacancy rates for many clinical and non-clinical roles.
Applications to study nursing are also down – hit by the double whammy of UK students facing fees instead of bursaries and EU students facing Brexit. And with the UK set to leave the EU, things could go from bad to worse – as new analysis from The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (BIJ) finds that some key hospitals in England depend on the European Union for up to one in five staff, and even higher proportions of doctors and nurses.
The report also reveals that senior figures in the NHS have warned that recruitment from Europe has dried up, with potential knock-on effects on waiting times, operating theatre capacity and beds.
The hardest hit
In the NHS, 63,000 staff – 5.6% of the total workforce – are from EU countries, including 10% of doctors and 7% of nurses.
Recent research reports from both The BIJ and the House of Commons Library, which give more detail on regional variations, show hospitals in London and the south-east are particularly reliant on EU staff. In London, 11% of staff are nationals of other EU countries compared with just 2% in North East of England.
In 92 trusts, more than 10% of doctors or nurses are from the EU. Shutterstock
The Royal Brompton is the hospital most reliant on EU staff, with 28% of doctors and 27% of nurses from the EU. Overall, in a third of health trusts, EU nationals make up more than one in ten medical staff. And in over a fifth of trusts they make up more than one in ten nurses and health visitors.
The EU effect
Since the EU referendum, the percentage of NHS staff (for whom nationality is known) has changed apparently little, but there are nevertheless worrying trends beneath the headline figure. Between 2015 and 2016, 11% of those joining the NHS were EU nationals, falling to 9% in 2016-2017 – and to 7.9% in 2017 to 2018.
The number of doctors who are recorded EU nationals has been stable since the EU referendum at around 9.8%, but for nurses the percentage of NHS joiners who were from the EU halved from 19% in 2015-2016 to 7.9% in 2017-2018, and of those leaving the NHS, 9% were EU nationals in 2015-2016 rising to 13% in 2017-2018.
Read more: Brexit is not good news for the NHS – here's why
In social care, over 100,000 staff (around 8% of the total workforce) are EU nationals from outside the UK. There are real concerns in this sector too, particularly since the recent migration advisory committee report, which recommended no preferential treatment for EU citizens after Brexit, and cutting visas for lower skilled workers – which would include those working in social care.
Although the committee was “seriously concerned” about the social care sector, it believes that improving pay and working conditions would attract a UK workforce. Although true, this may be unhelpful to local authorities, who are already straining to maintain services in the face of long years of budget cuts. To fill future social care vacancies with UK workers could require a 20% pay increase, according to estimates by the Resolution Foundation.
Brexit damage
It’s clear that Brexit is already harming the NHS. And as the uncertainty over what will happen when Britain leaves the EU accelerates the trends towards staffing shortages that were already well underway, it’s not surprising the recent People’s Vote march in London saw such a high turnout of people calling for a referendum on any Brexit deal. The British Medical Association, Royal College of Nurses and Royal College of Midwives have all called for a vote on the final deal, with concerns that Brexit could jeopardise safe patient care.
Protests calling for the government to save the NHS. Shutterstock
Before the 2016 EU referendum, health economist Andy Street, and I wrote on “the truth about migrants and the NHS”. This responded to misinformed anecdotes about inward EU migration creating strains on the NHS, and to the MP Sarah Woollaston’s insightful comment that “if you meet a migrant in the NHS, they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue”.
We pointed out the “healthy migrant” effect, which means that inward migrants, from the EU and further afield, are more likely to be working and less likely to be ill. We also explored the NHS’s reliance on staff, particularly clinical staff, trained from overseas.
Two years later, we approach with trepidation an imminent chaotic Brexit with uncertain effects on many parts of society – not least on our health. Reports of government instructions to stockpile medicines in advance of Brexit are alarming, but as this latest analysis shows, the most concerning long-term impacts may well be yet to come."
Source: https://theconversation.com/nhs-rel...ers-full-scale-of-brexit-risk-revealed-105326
find out soon enough , actually don't think anybody has a clue what's going on at the moment, me, you, the EU, parliament other than whats going through Mays head that particular week, how you do a deal with someone that moves the goalposts every so often, then isn't even sure if she has any goal posts the next time you see her?
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
The thing that intrigues me is this. Since the vote, there have been a steady stream of issues that have cropped up, none of which were front of stage during the campaign, that have made a decision to leave more and more problematic/nuts.
But nothing to enhance/validate the decision to leave. The "You lost", "Control of borders", "Make our own rules" cliches are STILL, despite being wrong, the only arguments put forward.
Barmy.
I suspect that the goalposts have always been the same, certainly in terms of conversations with the EU, but that May is frantically positioning the goalposts as suitably white to appease the wingnuts in her party. All the shuffling is for domestic purposes I suspect, with not much changing at the actual coal face.
I said the other day, research has shown that people are more likely to change their religion these days than they are their political sensibilities. I'm not sure that's a healthy state to be in.
True.
Would have been nice if Remain had actually gone on the strengths of their arguments, rather than trying to belittle the points of Leave's.
Maybe then the result would been different.
Utter tits (apologies for the language) on both sides, and in our government now and in the EU (yes, they aren't all great). But I'm fed up of it now and just want it sorted one way or the other. Whatever happens, it isn't the end of the world.
And a huge amount of this has been made worse by identity politics, imo.
Obviously, right-wing bigots will always be bigots and left-wing lunatics will always be left-wing lunatics.
However, with identity politics, there is a kind of forced think that if you are, I don't know, black, you must think like other black people. Or if you're a 25-year-old male from Newcastle, you must think like other 25-year-old male's from Newcastle.
Most people don't care enough about politics to be interested in the fine details, and ultimately will go with what the majority of people in their age group/social circle do etc. Now, I'm not implying that identity politics has caused that, because that's not true - that's just human nature.
However, the - I believe - encouragement of identity politics has extenuated that. People don't like being cast aside, and it's easier to just stay part of the crowd.
I think the key point here - is the change required to internal EU legislation and the time it would take for that to happen, but consider this
1. We haven't left the EU yet and even if we revoke article 50 - then we are still in the EU and therefore all existing UK legislation remains. In fact only 7% of the required legislation changes required for us to exit the EU have been seen by parliament!
2. Again if we don't leave the EU then no EU country need amend their own internal legislation - everything remains the same
The UK is the first member state to invoke Article 50, so there are no precedents for its implementation, nor for circumstances in which a country decides to withdraw the letter. What is clear is that invoking Article 50 notified the EU of our intention to withdraw. But intentions can change. (David Davis said a few months ago "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."
We still have all the rights of a member-state, including the right to change our minds and our votes, as member states frequently do, for example after elections. As Lord Kerr, who was Secretary-General of the European Constitutional Convention (2002-3) which drafted Article 50, has said: “The Article is about voluntary withdrawal, not about expulsion: we don’t have to go if at any stage, within the two years we decide we don't want to".
The UK’s Article 50 letter notified the EU of our intention to leave, but intentions can change. Up until the date the Article 50 deadline expires, we still have all the rights of a member-state, including the right to change our minds.
Revoking the Article 50 letter would be cost free, since the terms of our EU membership cannot be changed without our agreement as a member state. However, if we were to leave and then at some future stage re-apply for membership, the terms would have to be negotiated afresh.
Time is not essential here - we can revoke article 50 at any stage between now and 29th March 2019.
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
Like many I guess, I didnt vote to stay with any real enthusiasm, more a case of "It aint too shabby" and not being entirely sure what leaving really meant.
That stance seems to get validated, almost daily.
Other than the hard line leavers, surely normal, cba voters can see that?
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