Current Affairs EU In or Out

[dholliday]

look it up most of mainland Europe has a nationalist party , either in control on second to third largest party , that wasnt the case before , so if not Merkel and co who is to blame for that rise?

I wouldn't actually blame Merkel directly. My blame goes to the media and the commentariat who both shut down balanced debate from the very beginning of the mass migrations from Sep 2015 onwards.

It was this shutting down by shouting things like "you're a nazi! you're a racist!" which has enabled the actual nazis & racists. Something we warned would happen.

You may have seen it, edge, but even I've been accused of being a nazi racist rightwing type on this very forum. Multiply me by millions, and some of us will end up voting for parties like UKIP, AFD etc out of sheer spite.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

she has given them a voice they didnt have before, nobody asked did people want to welcome anybody into there countries, they were told they had to, so stoking up resentment from the start.
Playing right into the nationalist parties hands.
Simple fact look it up most of mainland Europe has a nationalist party , either in control on second to third largest party , that wasnt the case before , so if not Merkel and co who is to blame for that rise?
why does nationalist equal racist?
SNP , Plaid, ect are nationalist , other than against the English, i wouldnt call them racist.

Erm, voting to leave the EU? It was dismissed as project fear, of course, but there was warning that Brexit would trigger this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ight-hails-britains-brexit-vote-marine-le-pen

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Don’t be silly Bruce, everyone has a limit, some take longer to reach it than others, but everyone has a limit, even you......

A limit to what Pete?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

35 Nobel Laureates and Fields Medalists, including Venki Ramakrishnan, President of the Royal Society, have written to Prime Minister May and President Juncker calling for a Brexit deal on science and innovation which allows ‘the closest possible cooperation between the UK and the EU, now and in the future’.

The letters highlight the growing strength of European science, citing the ease of collaboration nurtured by the EU as a key factor in this. The letters call on the UK to step up its commitment to EU research and innovation programmes and the EU to ensure those programmes are open to ‘association by the best and participation by all’ based on a fair financial contribution.

The letters also highlight the need for ‘the flow of people and ideas across borders to allow the rapid exchange of ideas, expertise and technology’ saying that new barriers to collaboration will inhibit progress in tackling global challenges and be ‘to the detriment of us all’.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/news/2018/brexit-nobels-fields-UK-letter.pdf
https://royalsociety.org/~/media/news/2018/brexit-nobels-fields-EU-letter.pdf

 

[edge]

Erm, voting to leave the EU? It was dismissed as project fear, of course, but there was warning that Brexit would trigger this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ight-hails-britains-brexit-vote-marine-le-pen

I was talking about Merkel, Bruce and her affect on it, as far as i know no nationalist party in the UK supported Brexit so not really the same, although i will admit Brexit was seen as a vote against the established order across the continent , and given people a example of the power they possess if they don't like the status quo.
Anyway i dont think even the most ardent anti brexit supporter can say it had more effect on the nationalist rise in popularity than an influx of millions of refugees/ migrants invited by Merkel into countries like Greece, Italy that were suffering massive problems already, although it has spread far beyond those counties to finland ect,
Its been to easy to just throw the racist tag at them , without looking at the problems that concern there supporters, now they are reacting by voting for parties that will on the face of it listen to there concerns and give them a voice, sadly history teaches us it will not stop there , Europe is facing a dangerous time.
As i have said way back in this thread , its one of the reasons i wanted out , we the UK ,(mostly) don't have much appetite for this brand of politics thankfully so don't have to get dragged into it, once we leave the EU, well if we do in anything but name that is.

 

[edge]

35 Nobel Laureates and Fields Medalists, including Venki Ramakrishnan, President of the Royal Society, have written to Prime Minister May and President Juncker calling for a Brexit deal on science and innovation which allows ‘the closest possible cooperation between the UK and the EU, now and in the future’.

The letters highlight the growing strength of European science, citing the ease of collaboration nurtured by the EU as a key factor in this. The letters call on the UK to step up its commitment to EU research and innovation programmes and the EU to ensure those programmes are open to ‘association by the best and participation by all’ based on a fair financial contribution.

The letters also highlight the need for ‘the flow of people and ideas across borders to allow the rapid exchange of ideas, expertise and technology’ saying that new barriers to collaboration will inhibit progress in tackling global challenges and be ‘to the detriment of us all’.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/news/2018/brexit-nobels-fields-UK-letter.pdf
https://royalsociety.org/~/media/news/2018/brexit-nobels-fields-EU-letter.pdf

well tell the EU to stop saying we and are scientist are not in things like the European space agency( which isn't run by the EU by the way , its a separate legal entity) and various other scientific endeavours when we leave, have you any examples of the UK saying they are not willing to carry on working with their european counterparts once we leave?
If you have i will agree with you its a daft stance

 

[sbbefc]

I was talking about Merkel, Bruce and her affect on it, as far as i know no nationalist party in the UK supported Brexit so not really the same, although i will admit Brexit was seen as a vote against the established order across the continent , and given people a example of the power they possess if they don't like the status quo.
Anyway i dont think even the most ardent anti brexit supporter can say it had more effect on the nationalist rise in popularity than an influx of millions of refugees/ migrants invited by Merkel into countries like Greece, Italy that were suffering massive problems already, although it has spread far beyond those counties to finland ect,
Its been to easy to just throw the racist tag at them , without looking at the problems that concern there supporters, now they are reacting by voting for parties that will on the face of it listen to there concerns and give them a voice, sadly history teaches us it will not stop there , Europe is facing a dangerous time.
As i have said way back in this thread , its one of the reasons i wanted out , we the UK ,(mostly) don't have much appetite for this brand of politics thankfully so don't have to get dragged into it, once we leave the EU, well if we do in anything but name that is.

Other than UKIP getting 12.5% of the vote in 2015.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

well tell the EU to stop saying we and are scientist are not in things like the European space agency( which isn't run by the EU by the way , its a separate legal entity) and various other scientific endeavours when we leave, have you any examples of the UK saying they are not willing to carry on working with their european counterparts once we leave?
If you have i will agree with you its a daft stance

Again, it was suggested well before the vote that if we left then that would have implications for things like Horizon2020 (and it's follow up Horizon2027), but those were discounted as part of project fear. Now those warnings are in danger of being realised and it's the EU's fault for doing it.

Personally, I'm familiar with a number of EU innovation projects, and whilst they do have scope for non-EU partners (they partner with Silicon Valley, for instance) those partners are nowhere near as integrated, involved or supported as EU-based partners are. I heard from the horse's mouth last month that they are unclear how Brexit will impact things, so either they were being coy about it, or the 90/95% of things that are supposedly resolved don't include this. There's no real motivation to ostracise Britain from these things, as Britain offers a tremendous amount, but this is ultimately the decision the leave voters made. You can't vote to leave and then say you actually want to stay a part of certain bits, although that was often the absurd position taken by many leave campaigners, hence the joke Barnier pulled about having your cake and eating it.

 

[edge]

Other than UKIP getting 12.5% of the vote in 2015.

there main aim was to leave the EU that's what they stood up for and most of there voters had no other outlet to express there wishes other than through them,
now after the Brexit result they have little or no support in the ballot box and are an irrelevance, unless May totally cocks the deal up.

 

[edge]

Again, it was suggested well before the vote that if we left then that would have implications for things like Horizon2020 (and it's follow up Horizon2027), but those were discounted as part of project fear. Now those warnings are in danger of being realised and it's the EU's fault for doing it.

Personally, I'm familiar with a number of EU innovation projects, and whilst they do have scope for non-EU partners (they partner with Silicon Valley, for instance) those partners are nowhere near as integrated, involved or supported as EU-based partners are. I heard from the horse's mouth last month that they are unclear how Brexit will impact things, so either they were being coy about it, or the 90/95% of things that are supposedly resolved don't include this. There's no real motivation to ostracise Britain from these things, as Britain offers a tremendous amount, but this is ultimately the decision the leave voters made. You can't vote to leave and then say you actually want to stay a part of certain bits, although that was often the absurd position taken by many leave campaigners, hence the joke Barnier pulled about having your cake and eating it.

why cant common sense say if its of a mutually benefited to both sides we cant carry on doing just that?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I was talking about Merkel, Bruce and her affect on it, as far as i know no nationalist party in the UK supported Brexit so not really the same, although i will admit Brexit was seen as a vote against the established order across the continent , and given people a example of the power they possess if they don't like the status quo.
Anyway i dont think even the most ardent anti brexit supporter can say it had more effect on the nationalist rise in popularity than an influx of millions of refugees/ migrants invited by Merkel into countries like Greece, Italy that were suffering massive problems already, although it has spread far beyond those counties to finland ect,
Its been to easy to just throw the racist tag at them , without looking at the problems that concern there supporters, now they are reacting by voting for parties that will on the face of it listen to there concerns and give them a voice, sadly history teaches us it will not stop there , Europe is facing a dangerous time.
As i have said way back in this thread , its one of the reasons i wanted out , we the UK ,(mostly) don't have much appetite for this brand of politics thankfully so don't have to get dragged into it, once we leave the EU, well if we do in anything but name that is.

I'd argue that UKIP are nothing if not a nationalist party, and they were the main agitators for Brexit. I don't doubt that there are challenges involved in any large movement of people, and I doubt that anyone really suggests that there are. My beef is that most of those nationalist politicians have lied intensively and extensively about those problems in order to stoke fear about 'the other'. It's frankly appalling. We see it in our government at the moment, that they use 'the other', who in this case are the EU, to deflect constantly from their own failings, and I've said until I'm blue in the face that the government have so many powers to help local communities adapt to changes in their population, and they use absolutely none of them. Instead they succumb to UKIP scaremongering that bares little resemblance to any kind of actual evidence.

Yes, history tells us that myths can be hugely pervasive, and again, when Cameron warned of the consequences he was branded as a scaremongerer, yet Trump followed Brexit, and thank god Macron was able to stop Le Pen in France, and the Dutch kept Wilders out of office in the Netherlands or I dread to think how the last few years would have been.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

why cant common sense say if its of a mutually benefited to both sides we cant carry on doing just that?

With respect, I think that's disingenuous. These are EU programs, and you voted to leave the EU, so it doesn't seem in any way right for you to say you'd actually like to stay in bits of the EU, just because they're really kinda good. People were told of the likely consequences of this decision, and they went ahead anyway. Live with those consequences. It's perhaps also worth noting that the academic community en masse were heavily remain, precisely because they know the value they get from EU membership. They were dismissed as liberal elitists in ivory towers.

 

[neil999]

Maybe. Are you suggesting there's no connection between her rep as Mutti (mother in german), her childlessness, the refugee girl from the video and wir schaffen das?

It's interesting to note how many current world leaders & senior ministers are childless, one can make hey in musing how this may concern the long-term future of their nations.

And learned writers do make hey, here's one:

So how has this era of childless leaders in Europe emerged and what does it say about our society?

It suggests Thatcher is a role model in how to re-introduce the family in leaders' public lives. One reader comment is telling: "there is a huge reluctance to talk about it." Are you reluctant?

Musing is fine. It creates debate. Why do you think it's irrelevant and why did you seek to control my language when you said I should entirely remove that particular point? Fascists seek to control debate, liberals allow it. I'm pretty sure you're not a fascist-type. Were you offended on behalf of Merkel?

err that article seems to be about why there are political leaders without children adn very little on it affecting policy, what other lifestyle choices of leaders should we examine?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

why cant common sense say if its of a mutually benefited to both sides we cant carry on doing just that?

It's perhaps also worth pointing out that this goes deeper than direct research related policies. Sir Paul Nurse was on Radio 4 this morning explaining how fundamentally unwelcome EU researchers feel in the UK as a result of government rhetoric.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm around 8.10am if you want to listen. Just to repeat if people don't listen - 97% of the 1,000 scientists associated with the Crick Institute believe a hard Brexit will be terrible for science.

 

[edge]

I wouldn't actually blame Merkel directly. My blame goes to the media and the commentariat who both shut down balanced debate from the very beginning of the mass migrations from Sep 2015 onwards.

It was this shutting down by shouting things like "you're a nazi! you're a racist!" which has enabled the actual nazis & racists. Something we warned would happen.

You may have seen it, edge, but even I've been accused of being a nazi racist rightwing type on this very forum. Multiply me by millions, and some of us will end up voting for parties like UKIP, AFD etc out of sheer spite.

sorry not replying earlier only just seen my name in your post,. yes I have seen you accused of what you say, its a forum it takes allsorts carry on posting I like differing views myself makes it more intresting

I'd argue that UKIP are nothing if not a nationalist party, and they were the main agitators for Brexit. I don't doubt that there are challenges involved in any large movement of people, and I doubt that anyone really suggests that there are. My beef is that most of those nationalist politicians have lied intensively and extensively about those problems in order to stoke fear about 'the other'. It's frankly appalling. We see it in our government at the moment, that they use 'the other', who in this case are the EU, to deflect constantly from their own failings, and I've said until I'm blue in the face that the government have so many powers to help local communities adapt to changes in their population, and they use absolutely none of them. Instead they succumb to UKIP scaremongering that bares little resemblance to any kind of actual evidence.

Yes, history tells us that myths can be hugely pervasive, and again, when Cameron warned of the consequences he was branded as a scaremongerer, yet Trump followed Brexit, and thank god Macron was able to stop Le Pen in France, and the Dutch kept Wilders out of office in the Netherlands or I dread to think how the last few years would have been.

Ukip would have and now don't have any support now they don't have leave the EU to hide behind, stripped of that the voters just see than as a gang of loons.
Cameron should have used the powers that the EU have already in place meant that most of the scare tactics were not valid, I have said repeatedly it wasn't the EU fault that he and others didn't use the tools the EU laws on immigration offered,
It was the unwillingness of the UK government to implement them , or tell people the facts behind them, that's one thing I will not blame the EU for.