Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

Their responses are getting more and more bizarre the more desperate they get.

That the Irish government will count EU citizens in and out of Ireland is just about the most preposterous explanation of the border issue offered to date.

And to say "anyone caught in the U.K. who did not officially leave the ROI would be returned there" beggars belief.

These Brexiteers are living in a parallel universe where they imagine everything is just magically going to fall into place.

Mark, I'd have more respect for them if they just said that they didn't know of a solution rather than this ridiculous charade that they play out every day. They feign knowledge of a subject that nobody can answer, given the entrenched positions of the DUP and their new found friends on the far Tory right, the existence of the pesky GFA, the unwillingness of the EU to be dictated to by a soon to be former member of it, and the hypocrisy of the refusal to countenance a sea border which already operates on a small scale. Anyway, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will sort all this out once she has worked out which party is which. What a mess.

 

[hullefc]

Their responses are getting more and more bizarre the more desperate they get.

That the Irish government will count EU citizens in and out of Ireland is just about the most preposterous explanation of the border issue offered to date.

And to say "anyone caught in the U.K. who did not officially leave the ROI would be returned there" beggars belief.

These Brexiteers are living in a parallel universe where they imagine everything is just magically going to fall into place.

It's make your mind up time for the Tories. No wonder the gloves are off and Johnson has called May out over her deceiving the EU with the December agreement.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Think a lot of people are missing why we don't actually need a hard border in NI... After the government has ruined the economy of the UK and the population has been divided into two warring factions no immigrant is going to want to cross into the UK and the people of NI won't have any money to buy goods and services from the ROI. So it sort of polices itself.

 

[Harryflashman]

What are you on about ? There is no counting out of EU citizens crossing the border to the North. Complete failure to answer this question yet again.

Well it seems extremely likely that there isn’t going to be a border for a start so counting them leaving is going be a tester . Let’s imagine there is a hard border are we suggesting that there will be passport machines and staff to record each individual crossing the said border because that’s even a step up from what we’ve had suggested so far . The Nationalist will I’m sure be delighted with that .

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I accept it may be a selection thing and that, but Radio 4 seemed to sum things up unintentionally this morning. They were talking about May's (daft) immigration speech yesterday, and spoke to an employer saying how vital it was for them to have access to the best talent, and that this was the same for their peers in the industry. So someone with a factual basis to underpin their opinion.

Then they cut to a couple of random women in a town in Essex saying quite incoherently about there being too many foreigners, not enough houses and jobs and all that, with seemingly no evidence behind any of their claims. It's bad enough that we live in an age where the two are given equivalence in the media, but the two women in Essex are effectively driving policy at the moment.

Leavers say that Europe is bullying us, but all the Europeans I know are simply cringing at the slow motion car crash our politicians are putting us through. It's doing incredible damage to our reputation overseas.

 

[edge]

I accept it may be a selection thing and that, but Radio 4 seemed to sum things up unintentionally this morning. They were talking about May's (daft) immigration speech yesterday, and spoke to an employer saying how vital it was for them to have access to the best talent, and that this was the same for their peers in the industry. So someone with a factual basis to underpin their opinion.

Then they cut to a couple of random women in a town in Essex saying quite incoherently about there being too many foreigners, not enough houses and jobs and all that, with seemingly no evidence behind any of their claims. It's bad enough that we live in an age where the two are given equivalence in the media, but the two women in Essex are effectively driving policy at the moment.

Leavers say that Europe is bullying us, but all the Europeans I know are simply cringing at the slow motion car crash our politicians are putting us through. It's doing incredible damage to our reputation overseas.

its not just a UK issue though Bruce the Europeans themselves as a whole are turning against immigration , look at the rise of anti immigration parties across the continent ,Poland, Italy , Hungary in power and others holding the balance of power in other elected chambers, I had a quick look yesterday they are in the top three parties in most of Europe, think there were only about 7 government's left who you would consider left or centre left on the continent right now.
Its not something I have ever blamed the EU for we had the laws already in place to deal with this issue , while in the EU we chose not to use them.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Immigration via NI is no issue. Nor is immigration through Gibraltar, Nor is immigration through Cyprus.....its only an issue in the minds of those that wish to see Brexit reversed......

Control over our borders, one of the supposed linchpins of Brexit, and yet that ‘control’ can be skipped as insignificant in the case of NI. You and your ilk have taken such a contorted postion on this issue.

 

[dholliday]

Control over our borders, one of the supposed linchpins of Brexit, and yet that ‘control’ can be skipped as insignificant in the case of NI. You and your ilk have taken such a contorted postion on this issue.

why is that contorted? NI is British.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

its not just a UK issue though Bruce the Europeans themselves as a whole are turning against immigration , look at the rise of anti immigration parties across the continent ,Poland, Italy , Hungary in power and others holding the balance of power in other elected chambers, I had a quick look yesterday they are in the top three parties in most of Europe, think there were only about 7 government's left who you would consider left or centre left on the continent right now.
Its not something I have ever blamed the EU for we had the laws already in place to deal with this issue , while in the EU we chose not to use them.

It's a sorry state of affairs and no mistake. I've nailed my colours pretty firmly to the mast on immigration, but my experience in Czech is that it's something that has been taken advantage of by hucksters. The country has very few migrants of any stripe (just 4% of the population), and was asked to take in very few refugees from Syria, yet the politicians have whipped up fear of migrants taking over with what are basically lies.

It's a similar situation in Hungary (4.7% of the population) and Poland (1.6% of the population). Indeed, many more people from each of those three countries live abroad than foreigners live there (8.13%, 5.7% and 10.3% respectively), yet 'the other' has been painted as the boogyman by politicians that are little short of crooks imo.

It's a shame that our politicians have decided to go down a similar path.

 

[dholliday]

It's a sorry state of affairs and no mistake. I've nailed my colours pretty firmly to the mast on immigration, but my experience in Czech is that it's something that has been taken advantage of by hucksters. The country has very few migrants of any stripe (just 4% of the population), and was asked to take in very few refugees from Syria, yet the politicians have whipped up fear of migrants taking over with what are basically lies.

It's a similar situation in Hungary (4.7% of the population) and Poland (1.6% of the population). Indeed, many more people from each of those three countries live abroad than foreigners live there (8.13%, 5.7% and 10.3% respectively), yet 'the other' has been painted as the boogyman by politicians that are little short of crooks imo.

It's a shame that our politicians have decided to go down a similar path.

As you may remember mate I also have experience with Czech & Hungary. The issue is very plain, tho' not very palatable to liberal sensibilities: most folk from CZ & HU don't want a higher proportion of people with Islam as their religion because they hear about its effects in countries that do have such a higher proportion (England, France & Germany for example). Effects like parallel societies are a real thing that's happening, as are the much higher birth-rates of Islamic families when compared to Western families. The folk from CZ & HU observe this and just plain don't want it happening in their own country. The reason being the proven failed-state status (and lack of human rights) of many nations in the world which have Islam as its majority belief system.

It's not fear of migrants, it's fear of Islam. Unpalatable, I know...but there it is.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As you may remember mate I also have experience with Czech & Hungary. The issue is very plain, tho' not very palatable to liberal sensibilities: most folk from CZ & HU don't want a higher proportion of people with Islam as their religion because they hear about its effects in countries that do have such a higher proportion (England, France & Germany for example). Effects like parallel societies are a real thing that's happening, as are the much higher birth-rates of Islamic families when compared to Western families. The folk from CZ & HU observe this and just plain don't want it happening in their own country. The reason being the proven failed-state status (and lack of human rights) of many nations in the world which have Islam as its majority belief system.

It's not fear of migrants, it's fear of Islam. Unpalatable, I know...but there it is.

I don't doubt that to be the case, but that fear has been blown out of all proportion by blatant dishonesty by certain politicians and certain media outlets. You'll find incredibly high correlation between those who think Islam is evil and those who believe London operates under Sharia law, for instance. It's no surprise that in both Czech and Hungary, the situation mirrors that of Britain to a large extent, as both Prague and Budapest are liberal enclaves, as both cities are more cosmopolitan by some distance than the rest of their respective countries (with the diaspora of both countries even more extreme in their liberalism - I think 95% of Czech's in London voted for Drahos this year). It seems common across Europe that exposure to those who are perceived as different exposes the reality that they really aren't that different after all, and therefore its those who don't have any exposure at all that are most exploited by the hucksters playing on their fear. It's wrong, and the situation in Czech saddens me as much as the situation here does.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

why is that contorted? NI is British.

Are you Jeffrey Donaldson by any chance ?

 

[edge]

As you may remember mate I also have experience with Czech & Hungary. The issue is very plain, tho' not very palatable to liberal sensibilities: most folk from CZ & HU don't want a higher proportion of people with Islam as their religion because they hear about its effects in countries that do have such a higher proportion (England, France & Germany for example). Effects like parallel societies are a real thing that's happening, as are the much higher birth-rates of Islamic families when compared to Western families. The folk from CZ & HU observe this and just plain don't want it happening in their own country. The reason being the proven failed-state status (and lack of human rights) of many nations in the world which have Islam as its majority belief system.

It's not fear of migrants, it's fear of Islam. Unpalatable, I know...but there it is.

The EU have implemented section 7 I think it is called on Hungary, basically taking over its borders and implementing there own border laws, its going to get really sticky out there, saying that I think if that's the way there people want to go its up to them .

 

[dholliday]

I don't doubt that to be the case, but that fear has been blown out of all proportion by blatant dishonesty by certain politicians and certain media outlets. You'll find incredibly high correlation between those who think Islam is evil and those who believe London operates under Sharia law, for instance. It's no surprise that in both Czech and Hungary, the situation mirrors that of Britain to a large extent, as both Prague and Budapest are liberal enclaves, as both cities are more cosmopolitan by some distance than the rest of their respective countries (with the diaspora of both countries even more extreme in their liberalism - I think 95% of Czech's in London voted for Drahos this year). It seems common across Europe that exposure to those who are perceived as different exposes the reality that they really aren't that different after all, and therefore its those who don't have any exposure at all that are most exploited by the hucksters playing on their fear. It's wrong, and the situation in Czech saddens me as much as the situation here does.

Even in Budapest & Prague among the working-class locals (not the liberal studenty types who speak good english) there is this automatic anti- vibe.

I do share some of their more generalist concerns over Islam to be honest, but I don't share an automatic distrust of individual people who happen to be Muslim. They are obviously (and it really shouldn't need saying) just people like anyone else, who just want to get on without treading on toes or making waves, who have the odd bad apple just like any other people. It is perfectly possible to be publicly-concerned about Islam while still treating the Muslim people as fellow folk...but not many seem to really get it.

But fear of Islam is still second-place to fear of the Roma...at least in Prague...even the liberal multi-lingual types would suddenly turn venomous when it came to speaking of Roma, calling them all thieves and whatnot. Probably basing their whole opinion on the odd street-begging gang or caravan crew as if they're all like that. I spent time in Žižkov with a Roma family who were as nice & normal as anyone else: they ran a cheap & cheerful hostel and I felt quite safe & fine there, despite them not speaking a word of English or German.

 

[dholliday]

The EU have implemented section 7 I think it is called on Hungary, basically taking over its borders and implementing there own border laws, its going to get really sticky out there, saying that I think if that's the way there people want to go its up to them .

I would also agree that if that's the way Hungary want to go, then it's up to them...with the caveat that they maybe should exit the EU (which I believe they are more NEA by the longer it all drags on).