Current Affairs EU In or Out

[bring the ghost on]

The bile in your post is sad to read...

I think your tone is unnecessary - all I have argued is that immigration is a key factor and you've pounced all over it in an overly-defensive manner, against all the evidence.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Yes that is exactly what the leave vote means.
It also has an awful lot of negative political and economic consequences that come with it.

As did the 'In' vote...

 

[Seanjd]

I appreciate you laying it out like you have done above, and I can see where you are coming from.

However the matter of voting to leave the EU is far greater than just immigration. In a nutshell, there were also the issues of the UK being able to determine its own laws, and not being dictated to over that matter. And the judgements given in our courts being overturned by Brussels. Both not acceptable. We were continually being told what to do. Why did VAT rise to 20%, when it was far lower? Because the EU said we HAD to fall in line with the rate in other EU countries, that's why. Do I agree with that? Do YOU agree with that? Look deeper than immigration, and you will see other reasons why people voted to leave.

Again, these are points that you disagree with. My previous post was a generalisation of why I think the working class voted leave. Not why you did.

 

[Seanjd]

Typical childish comment from the remain supporters.

No, by one person who just so happened to be. Don't be divisive, it's not healthy.

 

[Old Blue 2]

I'm gobsmacked at your naivety and your refusal to accept that immigration was a key factor.

The Ipsos Morey surveys prior to the referendum found after just two weeks into the campaign immigration had replaced the economy as the single most important factor driving the leave vote. This was confirmed by other surveys. Do you still need more proof?

How about the relentless campaigning based around immigration - fear factor posters, australian 'points system', regaining the borders, countless interviews on the issue.

You accuse others of being out of their depth whilst missing the blindly obvious truth that immigration was central the debate - arguably the single most important issue.

There is no naivety in me at all.

Allow me to respond.
You should know, if you don't already, that surveys, as a sample of the population, are not statistically valid. If you have studied statistics, you will know that only at a certain point when the sample reaches a total of a certain %age of the total number of people available for the survey, does it become statistically valid. Hence the reason why the pundits and polls got it wrong on the 23rd. You are using an invalid premise to support your contention.

Fear factor posters on immigration - yes, by Farage. One might counter that by a fear factor approach by Osborne of a swingeing budget for all if the vote was to leave (conveniently ignored by the media, mostly)
Australian points system. Yep, the Aussies do have a points system. Do you have a problem with that?
Regaining the borders. Maybe you and others think our borders should be wide open for anyone from the EU to walk across and enter and stay in the UK. Fine. But you must also come up with the total infrastructure to support such an action. You cannot disassociate the one from the other.

There was more to the referendum that simply immigration. As I have posted before (and will not do so here), the desire to govern ourselves, and not be dictated to by Eurocrats from Brussels (immigration naturally rides on the back of this) across a whole host of issues also had a role to play. It is everything in the mix, not just the single issue of migration...

 

[Deleted member 28206]

I'm semi-retired having paid tax & NI all my working life
I'm virtually mortgage-free after being lucky enough to buy at the right time
Ergo 'I'm all right Jack', even after the referendum
But I DON'T GIVE A STUFF! It's not about what's best for me, it's about what's best for the younger generation and for the future of this country. And Brexit is patently not it.

Why is that so hard for some people to grasp?

You mean to say the older generation. The very ones who chose to leave?

 

[dandydan]

He's one of the worst men in British history.

Chico? Is that you?

 

[dandydan]

I think your tone is unnecessary - all I have argued is that immigration is a key factor and you've pounced all over it in an overly-defensive manner, against all the evidence.

I think you're right it was the biggest issue, not for me I was Eurosceptic before it went mainstream, but it's more than Polish plumbers. Most people saw whats happening in southern Europe and Germany and don't want anything to do with it.
To say that it's only white chavs who are concerned is complete BS though.

 

[bring the ghost on]

You should know, if you don't already, that surveys, as a sample of the population, are not statistically valid. If you have studied statistics, you will know that only at a certain point when the sample reaches a total of a certain %age of the total number of people available for the survey, does it become statistically valid. Hence the reason why the pundits and polls got it wrong on the 23rd. You are using an invalid premise to support your contention.

Feel free to go on believing that immigration wasn't a key factor if you want, but virtually every credible analysis of the result accepts it as a given that it was integral.

Yes, polls are flawed (everyone who witnessed the last GE knows that). But that doesn't mean they can't give us some valid information, and the overwhelming main issue of concern in more or less every poll throughout the referendum campaign was immigration. I don't think we should ignore that just because it doesn't fit your agenda.

When immigration is a bigger concern than the economy, you know you've got yourself a pretty major issue. I've never asserted that it is the only issue, rather that it is a key issue.

Australian points system. Yep, the Aussies do have a points system. Do you have a problem with that?
Regaining the borders. Maybe you and others think our borders should be wide open for anyone from the EU to walk across and enter and stay in the UK. Fine. But you must also come up with the total infrastructure to support such an action. You cannot disassociate the one from the other.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. You seem to have missed the actual point of my post in which I was seeking to explain how the immigration issue was utilised throughout the campaign. I wasn't proposing an "infrastructure" or querying the Australian points system, merely pointing out that they were prominent in the debate.

 

[Socrates]

I appreciate you laying it out like you have done above, and I can see where you are coming from.

However the matter of voting to leave the EU is far greater than just immigration. In a nutshell, there were also the issues of the UK being able to determine its own laws, and not being dictated to over that matter. And the judgements given in our courts being overturned by Brussels. Both not acceptable. We were continually being told what to do. Why did VAT rise to 20%, when it was far lower? Because the EU said we HAD to fall in line with the rate in other EU countries, that's why. Do I agree with that? Do YOU agree with that? Look deeper than immigration, and you will see other reasons why people voted to leave.

Let's just see if they bring VAT back down to 17.5%.

Doubt it though.

 

[BlueLlama]

Typical childish comment from the remain supporters.

Yep, spolit kids who cant take that they lost fairly in a democratic vote. The social media brats embarressing themselves by accusing everyone of beiing racist because they didnt get their way.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Let's just see if they bring VAT back down to 17.5%.

Doubt it though.

I agree. Similar to petrol prices. Put up in an instant when the price of a barrel of oil goes up. Takes about two weeks to reduce the petrol price when the price of a barrel goes down.

We get shafted every which way...

 

[Tree13]

Yea I'm certain in my mind that if there was a suitable trade based European community, I'd be 100% in.

But the euro currency project and the political integration, and the refusal to compromise at all means I felt I couldn't give it my support.

100% this. And every "leave" voter I know thinks broadly the same.

 

[DanEFC92]

Has anyone mentioned that it's democracy yet?

 

[Tree13]

Love him or hate him but without Nigel Farage there wouldn't be a referendum. And now in within 24 hours we have left the EU had the prime minister resign and the leader of the opposition facing a vote of no confidence. So as you can see one man can make a difference.

On point of accuracy - no we haven't. Until we invoke Article 50 we remain a full member of the EU, and Cameron has already said that he won't invoke Article 50.

What's very likely to happen is that we are going to inform the EU of our demands for remaining in - likely to include an exemption from free movement and a reduction in the "membership fee" we pay each year. The EU will decide whether or not they want to accept our terms. If they accept, there will be a second referendum here to see if the public are happy with the new terms. If they don't accept, Article 50 will get invoked.