Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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James O'brien on LBC was upset this am that talks are progressing positively with the EU - music to my ears to shut this remain protagonis up! lollollollollollollollol

This is the strange thing about it Joey, all the remainers seem to be happy that the U.K. may be seen to be giving in, when all that’s happened is that we’ve now agreed the transition and the final exit date. Those that wish to remain in the EU now show faux anger because we haven’t reclaimed our fish, yet we all know that it’s just a short extension of the status quo, which they wanted anyway. The remainers are now looking for anything to show their anger at how the U.K. is giving in to the EU and say I told you so, without realising that none of this matters as we will be legally out of the EU in a years time and completely free of the EU at the end of 2020........
 
Douglas Ross, the Tory MP for Moray, said: “There is no spinning this as a good outcome. It would be easier to get someone to drink a pint of sick than try to sell this as a success.”

Oh dear, no Partisan spin from Scotland.

It’s just politicians spouting words, they are all doing it. Yet all that has happened is that the final leaving date has been set at the end of 2020. The U.K. will take back ownership of its waters and it’s economic benefits at this time. We’ve waited a long time for this, another couple of months will make no difference and may indeed give the U.K. fishing industry time to prepare and build and train to take advantage of it.........
 
... apart from the billions of pounds we will be sending them, and whatever it is that May has signed up to as part of the trade deal.

Whatever. It’s doesnt matter. At the end of 2020, the most senior politician will be a British Prime Minister who has to deliver for the U.K. and not some made up ‘president’ who we can’t vote out of office........
 
This is the strange thing about it Joey, all the remainers seem to be happy that the U.K. may be seen to be giving in, when all that’s happened is that we’ve now agreed the transition and the final exit date. Those that wish to remain in the EU now show faux anger because we haven’t reclaimed our fish, yet we all know that it’s just a short extension of the status quo, which they wanted anyway. The remainers are now looking for anything to show their anger at how the U.K. is giving in to the EU and say I told you so, without realising that none of this matters as we will be legally out of the EU in a years time and completely free of the EU at the end of 2020........

Do you believe that Pete? For what it's worth, I don't believe remain voters are angry over fish, but there is I suspect, a strong suspicion that we will leave in name only, and therefore not be completely free as you put it, as the rules we abide by today will still be abided by, but we will lose most of the say we had in crafting those rules.

I gave you a detailed explanation of why that is the case, but I've noticed on these threads that people (of whatever persuasion) tend to respond when they've got an angle to attack, so if people don't respond it's often because they can't find a hole in your argument, so I've arrogantly taken your silence on it as a compliment ;)
 
Do you believe that Pete? For what it's worth, I don't believe remain voters are angry over fish, but there is I suspect, a strong suspicion that we will leave in name only, and therefore not be completely free as you put it, as the rules we abide by today will still be abided by, but we will lose most of the say we had in crafting those rules.

I gave you a detailed explanation of why that is the case, but I've noticed on these threads that people (of whatever persuasion) tend to respond when they've got an angle to attack, so if people don't respond it's often because they can't find a hole in your argument, so I've arrogantly taken your silence on it as a compliment ;)

If I like it, then it’s a compliment. :). I see that we still need the 27 to sign off on this anyway, if they do then it’s as I said, if they don’t then we leave this time next year.....
 
Scottish Tories warn May they are prepared to collapse Government over UK fishing rights
ANGRY Scottish Conservative MPs have warnedTheresa May that they are prepared to collapse her Government if she reneges on a “fundamental pledge” to give Britain’s fishermen full sovereignty over UK waters from 2021.

The Herald has been told that the group of 13 Scottish Tory MPs feel the issue is “totemic”; that after years, from Ted Heath onwards, when Conservatives were accused of letting down the fishing industry, they could not be seen to be doing so again.

“It’s the position of the Scottish Conservative Group that if we don’t get a guarantee of full control of UK waters after the implementation period is over, then we will be prepared to vote down the final EU Bill,” explained one MP.

Asked if the group was really prepared to see the fall of the May Government over fishing rights, he replied: “That’s how seriously we are taking this issue.”

READ MORE: May accused of 'massive sell-out' of Scottish fishermen after transition deal agreed with Brussels

Another MP insisted: “We don’t want to bring the Government down, obviously, but the Prime Minister knows the vote will all be about numbers. She must honour her fundamental pledge.”

The Scottish Conservative Group has previously pointed out to No 10 how, with 13 members, it is larger than the 10 Democratic Unionists, who are propping up the Government.

7551202.jpg


As David Davis, theBrexit Secretary, and Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, set out the basis for a transitional deal, which looks set to be ratified by European leaders at their meeting on Thursday, Nicola Sturgeonaccused Mrs May of a “massive sell-out” of Scottish fishermen over the deal struck over the 21-month implementation period.

This will mean UK fishermen will have to abide by quotas set by Brussels until December 2020.

The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation said it had been let down as UK fishing communities would be “subject to the whim and largesse of the EU for another two years”.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, expressed her own disappointment at the transitional deal but also warned Mrs May: “I should make it clear…I will not support a deal as we leave the EU which, over the long term, fails to deliver that full control over fish stocks and vessel access.”

REAAD MORE: UK concedes on free movement to secure 21-month transitional deal

John Lamont, the Tory MP for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, asked if he would vote down the final Brexit deal, if it did not include total control of fish stocks and vessel access, tweeted: “Yes.” Later, Ms Davidson added her own tweet, saying Mr Lamont would have her "full support" if that came to pass while her response was liked by David Mundell, the Scottish Secretary.

Their Conservative colleague Ross Thomson, who represents Aberdeen South, asked if it were indeed possible he and his Conservative colleagues could vote against their own Government should full sovereignty over fishing rights not be guaranteed, replied: “We can’t vote to betray our fishermen.”

Douglas Ross, the MP for Moray, summed up the dismay and disappointment of his Scottish colleagues over the transitional deal, saying: “There is no spinning this as a good outcome; it would easier to get someone to drink a pint of cold sick than try to sell this as a success."

One Government insider suggested that Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary, who last week penned an article with Ms Davidson making clear how during the implementation period “we will ensure British fishermen's interests are properly safeguarded," was livid at not being kept in the loop regarding the precise deal Mr Davis had hatched on fishing with Mr Barnier. Tory HQ was also said to have been taken by surprise by the details.

Downing Street denied the transitional deal was a “sell-out”. The PM’s spokesman explained that the original text only contained an unspecified consultation with the EU in advance of setting its total allowable catch limits; now, “specific safeguards” had been agreed relating to the annual negotiations for 2019.

The EU, he pointed out, would have to consult the UK ahead of those negotiations, give a commitment its share of the catch could not be changed and that from December 2020 Britain would negotiate as a fully independent coastal state, “deciding who can access our waters and on what terms”.

Asked if the PM could give a cast-iron guarantee that from January 2021 the UK would have full sovereignty over its fishing waters, the spokesman replied: “Yes. We have been absolutely clear once we leave the EU we will be taking control of our fishing waters and, as the PM set out in her Mansion House speech, ensuring there are fairer rights for UK fishermen.”

7551201.jpg


Outwith Westminster, Bertie Armstrong for the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation said what Mr Davis had agreed with the EU27 on the implementation period fell “far short of an acceptable deal”.

He explained: “We will leave the EU and leave the Common Fisheries Policy but hand back sovereignty over our seas a few seconds later.”

Mr Armstrong said UK fishing communities did not trust Brussels to look after their interests, warning it: “Be careful what you do or the consequences later will be severe.”

HERALD VIEW: Fishing deal highlights weakness of UK's Brexit position

Claiming the Tory Government held let the industry down, he added: “We expect a written, cast-iron guarantee that after the implementation period, sovereignty will mean sovereignty and we will not enter into any deal which gives any other nation or the EU continued rights of access or quota other than those negotiated as part of the annual coastal states’ negotiations.”

Scottish Tories warn May they are prepared to collapse Government over UK fishing rights | HeraldScotland
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...to_collapse_Government_over_UK_fishing_rights
 
Whatever. It’s doesnt matter. At the end of 2020, the most senior politician will be a British Prime Minister who has to deliver for the U.K. and not some made up ‘president’ who we can’t vote out of office........

You realise all positions of power have been 'made up' at some point? Seems a poor choice of words to actually further the discussion especially as we never vote for a Prime Minister...

Is your issue with the being unable to vote out of office? What level should that go down to? Do you just want the number one position of power to be voted on? Or should we open up all positions of political power to be voted on? Governor of Bank of England?
 
If I like it, then it’s a compliment. :). I see that we still need the 27 to sign off on this anyway, if they do then it’s as I said, if they don’t then we leave this time next year.....

I'm not sure that was ever in doubt though was it? Article 50 itself kinda mandates that, so unless the whole thing is cancelled that was always the case. If anything, the fact that we are just a year out and there isn't even agreement in the Cabinet yet, much less anywhere else on what 'out' actually means should be of grave concern to everyone, leave or remain. I mean could you tell me what the trade policy is? The immigration policy? Defence and security? Anything at all? We are a year out, and there's no progress whatsoever.

We should be under no illusions here. The transition period is designed to roll-out the changes gradually rather than have the cliff edge. In other words, in March 2019 we should have this sorted, yet it's like we haven't even gotten started. As you say, the final agreement needs to be ratified by the 27 other EU states, so in reality we've got until around October this year to have Brexit sorted out. We have no trade deal, no concept for the Irish border, no immigration policy or framework for how migrants here and in Europe will be affected.

I can't speak for others, but even putting partisanship aside, I think most would want whatever the outcome is to be handled competently. Indeed, the older I get, the more inclined I am to think that competence is more important than ideology, but the Tories are making a right pigs ear of this.
 
Incidentally, it runs counter to the 'EU are swines' narrative, but I think I'm right in saying that the transition document outlined support from the EU for allowing the UK to take any trade deals negotiated with third parties (Canada, South Korea etc.) and take them on.
 
I'm not sure that was ever in doubt though was it? Article 50 itself kinda mandates that, so unless the whole thing is cancelled that was always the case. If anything, the fact that we are just a year out and there isn't even agreement in the Cabinet yet, much less anywhere else on what 'out' actually means should be of grave concern to everyone, leave or remain. I mean could you tell me what the trade policy is? The immigration policy? Defence and security? Anything at all? We are a year out, and there's no progress whatsoever.

We should be under no illusions here. The transition period is designed to roll-out the changes gradually rather than have the cliff edge. In other words, in March 2019 we should have this sorted, yet it's like we haven't even gotten started. As you say, the final agreement needs to be ratified by the 27 other EU states, so in reality we've got until around October this year to have Brexit sorted out. We have no trade deal, no concept for the Irish border, no immigration policy or framework for how migrants here and in Europe will be affected.

I can't speak for others, but even putting partisanship aside, I think most would want whatever the outcome is to be handled competently. Indeed, the older I get, the more inclined I am to think that competence is more important than ideology, but the Tories are making a right pigs ear of this.

I’m glad to see that you now understand that competence outweighs ideology. The Tories are trying to deliver the result of the vote, they are being hampered not just by the EU, but by all the strident remainers, some within the Conservative party and the issues regarding legalities, borders etc etc. All within a background of a government relying on the DUP. I think May is treading the fine line quite expertly. It would help enormously if our own people actually got behind her, but as that won’t happen and they will all do their selfish bit, I have more trust in her than any other politician.

We are further on than you imagine, and it will come together within the period identified. Remember it’s not just us that has to get this sorted, the German economy also depends on this.

Migrants have been covered, the CTA has been recognised, defence etc is covered via NATO and is more required by the EU than by the U.K. . A trade deal will either be done or not. Whatever the outcome, and it does affect both sides, we will be out of the EU.....
 
Scottish Tories warn May they are prepared to collapse Government over UK fishing rights
ANGRY Scottish Conservative MPs have warnedTheresa May that they are prepared to collapse her Government if she reneges on a “fundamental pledge” to give Britain’s fishermen full sovereignty over UK waters from 2021.

The Herald has been told that the group of 13 Scottish Tory MPs feel the issue is “totemic”; that after years, from Ted Heath onwards, when Conservatives were accused of letting down the fishing industry, they could not be seen to be doing so again.

“It’s the position of the Scottish Conservative Group that if we don’t get a guarantee of full control of UK waters after the implementation period is over, then we will be prepared to vote down the final EU Bill,” explained one MP.

Asked if the group was really prepared to see the fall of the May Government over fishing rights, he replied: “That’s how seriously we are taking this issue.”

READ MORE: May accused of 'massive sell-out' of Scottish fishermen after transition deal agreed with Brussels

Another MP insisted: “We don’t want to bring the Government down, obviously, but the Prime Minister knows the vote will all be about numbers. She must honour her fundamental pledge.”

The Scottish Conservative Group has previously pointed out to No 10 how, with 13 members, it is larger than the 10 Democratic Unionists, who are propping up the Government.

7551202.jpg


As David Davis, theBrexit Secretary, and Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, set out the basis for a transitional deal, which looks set to be ratified by European leaders at their meeting on Thursday, Nicola Sturgeonaccused Mrs May of a “massive sell-out” of Scottish fishermen over the deal struck over the 21-month implementation period.

This will mean UK fishermen will have to abide by quotas set by Brussels until December 2020.

The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation said it had been let down as UK fishing communities would be “subject to the whim and largesse of the EU for another two years”.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, expressed her own disappointment at the transitional deal but also warned Mrs May: “I should make it clear…I will not support a deal as we leave the EU which, over the long term, fails to deliver that full control over fish stocks and vessel access.”

REAAD MORE: UK concedes on free movement to secure 21-month transitional deal

John Lamont, the Tory MP for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, asked if he would vote down the final Brexit deal, if it did not include total control of fish stocks and vessel access, tweeted: “Yes.” Later, Ms Davidson added her own tweet, saying Mr Lamont would have her "full support" if that came to pass while her response was liked by David Mundell, the Scottish Secretary.

Their Conservative colleague Ross Thomson, who represents Aberdeen South, asked if it were indeed possible he and his Conservative colleagues could vote against their own Government should full sovereignty over fishing rights not be guaranteed, replied: “We can’t vote to betray our fishermen.”

Douglas Ross, the MP for Moray, summed up the dismay and disappointment of his Scottish colleagues over the transitional deal, saying: “There is no spinning this as a good outcome; it would easier to get someone to drink a pint of cold sick than try to sell this as a success."

One Government insider suggested that Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary, who last week penned an article with Ms Davidson making clear how during the implementation period “we will ensure British fishermen's interests are properly safeguarded," was livid at not being kept in the loop regarding the precise deal Mr Davis had hatched on fishing with Mr Barnier. Tory HQ was also said to have been taken by surprise by the details.

Downing Street denied the transitional deal was a “sell-out”. The PM’s spokesman explained that the original text only contained an unspecified consultation with the EU in advance of setting its total allowable catch limits; now, “specific safeguards” had been agreed relating to the annual negotiations for 2019.

The EU, he pointed out, would have to consult the UK ahead of those negotiations, give a commitment its share of the catch could not be changed and that from December 2020 Britain would negotiate as a fully independent coastal state, “deciding who can access our waters and on what terms”.

Asked if the PM could give a cast-iron guarantee that from January 2021 the UK would have full sovereignty over its fishing waters, the spokesman replied: “Yes. We have been absolutely clear once we leave the EU we will be taking control of our fishing waters and, as the PM set out in her Mansion House speech, ensuring there are fairer rights for UK fishermen.”

7551201.jpg


Outwith Westminster, Bertie Armstrong for the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation said what Mr Davis had agreed with the EU27 on the implementation period fell “far short of an acceptable deal”.

He explained: “We will leave the EU and leave the Common Fisheries Policy but hand back sovereignty over our seas a few seconds later.”

Mr Armstrong said UK fishing communities did not trust Brussels to look after their interests, warning it: “Be careful what you do or the consequences later will be severe.”

HERALD VIEW: Fishing deal highlights weakness of UK's Brexit position

Claiming the Tory Government held let the industry down, he added: “We expect a written, cast-iron guarantee that after the implementation period, sovereignty will mean sovereignty and we will not enter into any deal which gives any other nation or the EU continued rights of access or quota other than those negotiated as part of the annual coastal states’ negotiations.”

Scottish Tories warn May they are prepared to collapse Government over UK fishing rights | HeraldScotland
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...to_collapse_Government_over_UK_fishing_rights

Nicely cut and pasted, but fishing will be under our control from 2020. The fishermen have had 40 odd years of this, an extra few months won’t kill them.......
 
You realise all positions of power have been 'made up' at some point? Seems a poor choice of words to actually further the discussion especially as we never vote for a Prime Minister...

Is your issue with the being unable to vote out of office? What level should that go down to? Do you just want the number one position of power to be voted on? Or should we open up all positions of political power to be voted on? Governor of Bank of England?

It’s very simple. If you don’t like May, we can all vote and she will either be elected again or not. You nor I had any vote to appoint Juncker, nor do we have a vote to remove him. So this unelected ‘president’ has now just appointed his right hand man Selmayr and even the EU are up in arms about it. It is worse than Russia, at least Putin could be seen stuffing the voting boxes, the EU do it without cameras.......
 
It’s very simple. If you don’t like May, we can all vote and she will either be elected again or not. You nor I had any vote to appoint Juncker, nor do we have a vote to remove him. So this unelected ‘president’ has now just appointed his right hand man Selmayr and even the EU are up in arms about it. It is worse than Russia, at least Putin could be seen stuffing the voting boxes, the EU do it without cameras.......

Actually Pete, you have an equal lack of a vote for May as PM as you have for Juncker - even the people of Maidenhead only get to elect her as their MP, and of course the Tory Party membership didn't even get to vote for her as leader.
 
I’m glad to see that you now understand that competence outweighs ideology. The Tories are trying to deliver the result of the vote, they are being hampered not just by the EU, but by all the strident remainers, some within the Conservative party and the issues regarding legalities, borders etc etc. All within a background of a government relying on the DUP. I think May is treading the fine line quite expertly. It would help enormously if our own people actually got behind her, but as that won’t happen and they will all do their selfish bit, I have more trust in her than any other politician.

It's beginning to sound a bit blinkered Pete. There are well known factions within the cabinet, each of whom wants a different type of Brexit. May tried to put the matter to bed by calling an early election, but it backfired enormously. Since then, they've been making it up as they go along.

You have to remember that the majority in parliament, and a good part of the country don't think this is a good idea. It's not up to them to make it work for the leavers, it's up to the leavers to deliver something the country can get behind. All we've got to date are vacuous soundbites.

As I've said previously, this accusation that people aren't getting behind Brexit is nonsense. You won't get remainers going into work and not trying because they think Brexit sucks, and frankly the very concept is ridiculous. That's what makes the country good or not, the ease and effectiveness with which people can do their jobs.

We are further on than you imagine, and it will come together within the period identified. Remember it’s not just us that has to get this sorted, the German economy also depends on this.

Are we? Do you care to share this information so the rest of the country don't have to imagine?

Migrants have been covered, the CTA has been recognised, defence etc is covered via NATO and is more required by the EU than by the U.K. . A trade deal will either be done or not. Whatever the outcome, and it does affect both sides, we will be out of the EU.....

They haven't been covered. My wife is a migrant and hasn't the foggiest how she will be treated when we leave. There have been vague statements but nothing legally binding has been confirmed whatsoever. I wasn't talking about NATO, I was talking about things like the European Arrest warrant and various other law enforcement and data sharing agreements we have with Europe.

A trade deal will either be done or not. Whatever the outcome, and it does affect both sides, we will be out of the EU.....

And I get that you're a wealthy pensioner for whom this doesn't matter one bit, but for many people just being out come what may is a very bad outcome.
 
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