Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
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*snigger*

Do you reckon BA will tell them to stick their open skies up their backside? I thought you'd been around the block enough not to be taken in by such simplistic nonsense as that uttered by Johnson Pete.

I thought he put across quite a decent speech in an obvious attempt to bring some of the remainers back from their self imposed democracy defying positions....

What is laughable is Juncker responding to the speech by saying he is not trying to create a European superstate and that he is positively against such an idea. Does he even read his own words.......
 
That's very kind of you, yet she didn't have a say, despite living here for the best part of 20 years. It seems we're fine in discriminating about who can and can't vote on arbitrary things such as their nationality, but not on things such as whether they know basic things about that which they're voting. Just strikes me as odd.
With all due respect Bruce, your solution to combating one injustice would be to creating a second injustice. Discrimination is wrong be it done in the name of race or intellect. Our immigration system badly needs to be updated so people like your missus get the full rights they derserve. I really wish we as a society could have a more frank and grown-up discussion with regards to immigration.
This is the thing, trust in politicians is at rock bottom levels. That will only improve when the whole system is held to account more than it is at the moment. Politicians can largely get away with lying like turds because the electorate are so often ignorant when casting the vote. We're living in a 'fake news' age, yet there is no real regulation of elections to hold people to account, and voters generally don't bother to fact check what is said. It creates a process fuelled by misinformation, which if democracy is to thrive cannot be the case.
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying here Bruce, I just truly don't see how taking away the right to vote off the less intelligent is a good solution to the problem. Nor is ignoring a democratic vote a good solution to gaining trust of the population. If we are serious about combating the problems of "fake news" then we have to hold our politicians to a higher standard and demand they keep to their word and they be forced to face consequences should they lie. This however needs to be evenly handed so it doesn't just work against the smaller party's who can't afford an army of researchers like Labour and the Torys can. We also need to have frank and reasonable discussions on the real issues of society rather then more of the shallow hyperbole arguments our politicians currently do.
 
That's very kind of you, yet she didn't have a say, despite living here for the best part of 20 years. It seems we're fine in discriminating about who can and can't vote on arbitrary things such as their nationality, but not on things such as whether they know basic things about that which they're voting. Just strikes me as odd.

This is the thing, trust in politicians is at rock bottom levels. That will only improve when the whole system is held to account more than it is at the moment. Politicians can largely get away with lying like turds because the electorate are so often ignorant when casting the vote. We're living in a 'fake news' age, yet there is no real regulation of elections to hold people to account, and voters generally don't bother to fact check what is said. It creates a process fuelled by misinformation, which if democracy is to thrive cannot be the case.

Indeed. I would like to see some form of law, difficult I know, that stops politicians saying they will give all things to everyone, without being fully costed and actually introduced upon victory......
 
I thought he put across quite a decent speech in an obvious attempt to bring some of the remainers back from their self imposed democracy defying positions....

What is laughable is Juncker responding to the speech by saying he is not trying to create a European superstate and that he is positively against such an idea. Does he even read his own words.......

I'm 15 minutes or so in at the moment, but it's interesting that to date he's mostly saying to remainers not to worry, that nothing will change, just so long as we get the same benefits outside the EU (visa free travel, access to H2020, Erasmus etc.) as we had inside it. It does sound rather like the having our cake and eating it thing that we're constantly told won't happen.
 
With all due respect Bruce, your solution to combating one injustice would be to creating a second injustice. Discrimination is wrong be it done in the name of race or intellect. Our immigration system badly needs to be updated so people like your missus get the full rights they derserve. I really wish we as a society could have a more frank and grown-up discussion with regards to immigration.

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying here Bruce, I just truly don't see how taking away the right to vote off the less intelligent is a good solution to the problem. Nor is ignoring a democratic vote a good solution to gaining trust of the population. If we are serious about combating the problems of "fake news" then we have to hold our politicians to a higher standard and demand they keep to their word and they be forced to face consequences should they lie. This however needs to be evenly handed so it doesn't just work against the smaller party's who can't afford an army of researchers like Labour and the Torys can. We also need to have frank and reasonable discussions on the real issues of society rather then more of the shallow hyperbole arguments our politicians currently do.

I gave a talk at the Lords on this a few weeks back, and it's easy to blame the media for peddling lies, or Facebook for spreading fake news, or the politicians (and other institutions) for bending the truth. In reality though, it's all of those, and also ourselves. We can't be absolved from blame here, as we're the ultimate gatekeeper to what we consume and whether we believe it. We get to vote with our clicks or our wallet each time we consume content.

As with most things in life, it's a systemic problem that will require systemic solutions, and we the humble reader/viewer/voter are central to that.

With regards to the research side of things. The majority of that is undertaken by researchers hired by the House of Commons themselves. They put a great deal of time and energy into providing parliament as a whole with accurate and impartial knowledge on a whole range of topics, and this information is available to all MPs via the Commons library (https://www.parliament.uk/commons-library). So there is, in essence, one version of 'the truth' out there, but there seems little attempt to hold politicians to that one 'truth'.

Indeed, there is a whole bunch of content in the Commons library about Brexit itself (https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/eu-referendum/). It may be among the best quality information on the topic out there, all in one place, yet I suspect that the proportion of the electorate that have read any of it is minuscule.
 
I'm 15 minutes or so in at the moment, but it's interesting that to date he's mostly saying to remainers not to worry, that nothing will change, just so long as we get the same benefits outside the EU (visa free travel, access to H2020, Erasmus etc.) as we had inside it. It does sound rather like the having our cake and eating it thing that we're constantly told won't happen.

It's also peculiar that he talks very much in the Singapore on Thames thing I mentioned a few days ago, that Brexit is a vote for even more globalisation and openness. I'm just not sure that's what people voted for at all. The cities and towns that are already global in nature, be it through trade or academia, nearly all voted to remain. People here have been criticised for 'speaking on behalf of 17 million people', and I wonder if Johnson isn't doing this on a mass scale. I don't doubt that he may speak for himself, and he may well even speak for you Pete, but I'm not sure he speaks for the typical person in Hull or Barrow.
 
It's also peculiar that he talks very much in the Singapore on Thames thing I mentioned a few days ago, that Brexit is a vote for even more globalisation and openness. I'm just not sure that's what people voted for at all. The cities and towns that are already global in nature, be it through trade or academia, nearly all voted to remain. People here have been criticised for 'speaking on behalf of 17 million people', and I wonder if Johnson isn't doing this on a mass scale. I don't doubt that he may speak for himself, and he may well even speak for you Pete, but I'm not sure he speaks for the typical person in Hull or Barrow.

Having just replayed the speech, again I think it was very good. He hit pretty well everything I’ve been going on about and in that respect he does speak for me, especially when it comes to democracy and opportunities. I’m not sure what you think the ‘typical’ person in Barrow is, although I would wager that Barrow employs more graduates as a percentage of the population than a great many other towns or cities. There is something for most people in his speech, indeed for most remainers also, though perhaps not for you. Which bits of the speech would you disagree with ?.........
 
It's also peculiar that he talks very much in the Singapore on Thames thing I mentioned a few days ago, that Brexit is a vote for even more globalisation and openness. I'm just not sure that's what people voted for at all. The cities and towns that are already global in nature, be it through trade or academia, nearly all voted to remain. People here have been criticised for 'speaking on behalf of 17 million people', and I wonder if Johnson isn't doing this on a mass scale. I don't doubt that he may speak for himself, and he may well even speak for you Pete, but I'm not sure he speaks for the typical person in Hull or Barrow.

There are probably less than a thousand people in the country on whose behalf Boris Johnson is speaking; certainly what he suggested Brexit should be like would be in the interest of an astonishingly small number of people.

As an aside, did you know that Singapore has nearly 82% of its people living in genuinely social housing (both affordable rent and affordable buy), and that they have a policy of deliberately mixing occupants of blocks based on their ethnicity? Somehow I doubt many leave voters would approve of that being brought in over here.
 
Having just replayed the speech, again I think it was very good. He hit pretty well everything I’ve been going on about and in that respect he does speak for me, especially when it comes to democracy and opportunities. I’m not sure what you think the ‘typical’ person in Barrow is, although I would wager that Barrow employs more graduates as a percentage of the population than a great many other towns or cities. There is something for most people in his speech, indeed for most remainers also, though perhaps not for you. Which bits of the speech would you disagree with ?.........

Well there's the bit I mentioned above. He's also quoting John Stuart Mill at the moment. Are we really suggesting On Liberty was a motivation for many leave voters (or indeed many remain voters)? He goes on to ask how many people could explain various obscure bits of EU legislature, and I doubt many could. Heck, I doubt many in the cabinet could explain them, but as I said earlier, ignorance is in rampant supply. People have shown very little understanding of the EU as a whole, just as their instincts send them awry on everything from crime levels to immigration numbers. The thing is, Johnson and Gove decried those 'experts' who do know the answer to these things. The politicians at the heart of the Brexit process continue to dismiss people who have examined these things and come to the opposite conclusion to them.

He says on immigration that he's not opposed to it and loves the diversity of Britain and the importance of being a 'magnet for ambition and drive' whilst deriding supposedly low skilled migrants. I fundamentally disagree with this, and indeed have said countless times now that the migrants we receive by virtue of free movement are 'better' on nearly every score you care to use than those who the government let in via controlled migration. The notion that the government can manage migration successfully is a nonsense. You also have to set his talk of attracting the best and brightest with repeated Tory calls for migration to be reduced to tens of thousands. Are we really suggesting that 5/6 of the migrants coming to Britain during the peak were low-skilled?

I've said this many times too, but I get that significant population changes can be disruptive to local communities, and more should be done to give councils greater flexibility over their spending, both in terms of what is collected and how it's spent. Be under no illusion though, the problems they face would be just as grave if British people moved towns more, or indeed if the birth rate of the country went up. A free flow of labour is a sign of a well functioning economy, and the government should accept that and govern more effectively rather than play dog whistle politics and pass the buck.

He says we live in a low wage, low productivity economy, which is daft and far from the truth.

He also says that UKIP have dwindled since the vote, which is largely because the Tories have done their bidding for them. It's hardly a positive trend.

He also talks towards the end about trade in and out of the EU, and that exports to Asia et al are growing, which is great, but he does nonetheless gloss over the fact that the EU have free trade agreements with Japan, with Canada and so on, all signed since we voted to leave.

He also says about the need for global standards etc. which is great, but I'm not sure how he reconciles having global standards and local sovereignty. It goes back to Dani Rodrik again, because an inevitability of global standards is that an international body will be making decisions on behalf of Britain. We will have input into those standards, but we have input into EU rules and regulations. He's being disingenuous about just what global trade entails.

It's also very naughty of him to try and blame the EU for the slow pace of house building in the UK.

One thing I do agree with him on is his point about no longer being able to blame Brussels for everything. It's just a shame that it takes us leaving for that to occur.
 
I gave a talk at the Lords on this a few weeks back, and it's easy to blame the media for peddling lies, or Facebook for spreading fake news, or the politicians (and other institutions) for bending the truth. In reality though, it's all of those, and also ourselves. We can't be absolved from blame here, as we're the ultimate gatekeeper to what we consume and whether we believe it. We get to vote with our clicks or our wallet each time we consume content.

As with most things in life, it's a systemic problem that will require systemic solutions, and we the humble reader/viewer/voter are central to that.

With regards to the research side of things. The majority of that is undertaken by researchers hired by the House of Commons themselves. They put a great deal of time and energy into providing parliament as a whole with accurate and impartial knowledge on a whole range of topics, and this information is available to all MPs via the Commons library (https://www.parliament.uk/commons-library). So there is, in essence, one version of 'the truth' out there, but there seems little attempt to hold politicians to that one 'truth'.

Indeed, there is a whole bunch of content in the Commons library about Brexit itself (https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/eu-referendum/). It may be among the best quality information on the topic out there, all in one place, yet I suspect that the proportion of the electorate that have read any of it is minuscule.
Are you Lord Adonis or Peter Mandeleson giving a talk in the lords was Lord Snooty there too?lol
 
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