Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
Not open for further replies.
It goes back to what people want doesn't it? Dani Rodrik is the dude on globalisation and his 'trilemma' from 2007 is really coming home to roost now.

image.gif


He's done a more recent follow up on how this relates to Brexit - http://rodrik.typepad.com/dani_rodriks_weblog/2016/06/brexit-and-the-globalization-trilemma.html


The above deserves to be read......and does a good job of presenting exactly why we should leave....

Brexit and the Globalization Trilemma
I have not written much on Brexit because I do not have a strong or particularly well-informed view of it. My personal hope is that Britain will choose to remain in the EU – but that is as much because of a belief that without Britain the EU will likely become less democratic and more wrong-headed as it is because of the likely economic costs of Brexit.

Yes, I do think exit poses significant economic risk to Britain (and possibly to the world economy), though I believe there are very large margins of uncertainty around the quantitative prognostications presented by the U.K. Treasury and many British economists. But there are also serious questions posed about the nature of democracy and self-government in the EU as presently constituted.

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (AEP) has now written a remarkable piece that makes the political case for Brexit. AEP makes clear that he has little in common with the jingoistic and nativist tone of the Brexit campaign. The distortions and lies promoted by the Brexiteers aside, the referendum does raise a serious question about how Britain will be governed:

“Stripped of distractions, it comes down to an elemental choice: whether to restore the full self-government of this nation, or to continue living under a higher supranational regime, ruled by a European Council that we do not elect in any meaningful sense, and that the British people can never remove, even when it persists in error.



We are deciding whether to be guided by a Commission with quasi-executive powers that operates more like the priesthood of the 13th Century papacy than a modern civil service; and whether to submit to a European Court (ECJ) that claims sweeping supremacy, with no right of appeal.

It is whether you think the nation states of Europe are the only authentic fora of democracy, be it in this country, or Sweden, or the Netherlands, or France ….”

The trouble is that the EU is more of a technocracy than a democracy (AEP calls it a nomenklatura). An obvious alternative to Brexit would be to construct a full-fledged European democracy. AEP mentions Yanis Varoufakis, a Brexit opponent, who has argued for something like “a United States of Europe with a genuine parliament holding an elected president to account.” But as AEP says,

“I do not think this is remotely possible, or would be desirable if it were, but it is not on offer anyway. Six years into the eurozone crisis there is no a flicker of fiscal union: no eurobonds, no Hamiltonian redemption fund, no pooling of debt, and no budget transfers. The banking union belies its name. Germany and the creditor states have dug in their heels.”

All of this is of course what I tried to highlight with my “political trilemma of the global economy,” reproduced below.


The trilemma suggests democracy is compatible with deep economic integration only if democracy is appropriately transnationalized as well – the solution that Varoufakis favors. AEP, by contrast, believes a democratic and accountable European super-state is neither feasible, nor even desirable.

Note that the tension that arises between democracy and globalization is not straightforwardly a consequence of the fact that the latter constrains national sovereignty. There are ways in which external constraints – as with democratic delegation – can enhance rather than limit democracy. But there are also many circumstances under which external rules do not satisfy the conditions of democratic delegation. See the discussion here.

AEP believes that European rules clearly lie within the latter category. In addition to the European bureaucracy (and its treatment of the euro crisis), he is especially bothered by the broad authority the European Court of Justice (ECJ) has over national policies, without right to appeal. As for Britain’s opt-out: “Need I add too that Britain's opt-out from the Charter under Protocol 30 - described as "absolutely clear" by Tony Blair on the floor of the Commons - has since been swept aside by the ECJ.”

I do not have a clear view on the substance of AEP’s argument – as to whether Britain’s self-government is sufficiently impaired by the EU, or its opt-out has been nullified by the ECJ. But it is clear that the EU rules needed to underpin a single European market have extended significantly beyond what can be supported by democratic legitimacy. Whether Britain’s opt out remains effective or not, the political trilemma is at work. In AEP’s evocative language,

“The [European] Project bleeds the lifeblood of the national institutions, but fails to replace them with anything lovable or legitimate at a European level. It draws away charisma, and destroys it. This is how democracies die.”

I first thought of the globalization trilemma when I was asked to contribute to a special millennial issue of the Journal of Economic Perspectives (in 2000), where I was asked to speculate about the nature of the world economy in 100 years’ time. I presented it as the political analogue of the macroeconomic trilemma of the open-economy well known to economists (we can have at most two among monetary independence, free capital flows, currency pegs). I thought then, and still do, that it will increasingly shape the evolution of world’s political economy.

At the time, I viewed the EU as the only part of the world economy that could successfully combine hyperglobalization (“the single market”) with democracy through the creation of a European demos and polity. I expressed the same view, somewhat more cautiously, in my 2011 book The Globalization Paradox.

But I now have to admit that I was wrong in this view (or hope, perhaps). The manner in which Germany and Angela Merkel, in particular, reacted to the crisis in Greece and other indebted countries buried any chance of a democratic Europe. She might have presented the crisis as one of interdependence (“we all contributed to it, and we are all in it together”), using it as an opportunity to make a leap towards greater political union. Instead, she treated it as a morality play, pitting responsible northerners against lazy, profligate southerners, and to be dealt with by European technocrats accountable to no one serving up disastrous economic remedies.

As Brexit opponents keep reminding us, the economic costs of Britain’s departure could be indeed sizable. Reasonable people have to make up their own mind as to how those costs stack up against the damage to democratic self-government. EAP is fully aware that his choice entails taking a “calculated risk.”

My generation of Turks looked at the European Union as an example to emulate and a beacon of democracy. It saddens me greatly that it has now come to stand for a style of rule-making and governance so antithetical to democracy that even informed and reasonable observers like AEP view departure from it as the only option for repairing democracy.
 
It's been mentioned before Pete, but here it is https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...0-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html

As you rightly point out, we haven't even started any trade negotiations, much less concluded any. I'm sure the head of the Brexit department carries no weight at all though.

How can you say that we haven’t started trade negotiations ?......I pointed out that we couldn’t sign any, however even the EU had to accept that there was nothing to stop us negotiating them and I would fully expect that that is what is happenening.....
 
How can you say that we haven’t started trade negotiations ?......I pointed out that we couldn’t sign any, however even the EU had to accept that there was nothing to stop us negotiating them and I would fully expect that that is what is happenening.....

Come on Pete, they'd be making a song and dance about the bright future around the corner if we'd entered into negotiations with anyone. Davis was either wilfully misleading people about the ease of our post-Brexit future, or he was shamefully ignorant of how these things operate. Given the way he's performed in public at the various committee meetings etc. it's hard to move away from the latter. Even if you support Brexit, you must admit he has been woefully bad.
 
Come on Pete, they'd be making a song and dance about the bright future around the corner if we'd entered into negotiations with anyone. Davis was either wilfully misleading people about the ease of our post-Brexit future, or he was shamefully ignorant of how these things operate. Given the way he's performed in public at the various committee meetings etc. it's hard to move away from the latter. Even if you support Brexit, you must admit he has been woefully bad.

I’m not so sure. I’d hold back any such information during our EU negotiations, but who knows......

In respect of Davis, I don’t think he’s a particularly good negotiator, but he does seem to be able to carry cross party support. He is also allowing Barnier to paint himself into a bit of a corner, by himself always appearing very reasonable. European governments are picking up on this with some even saying that Barnier is overstepping the mark.......if you can think of anyone better placed right now, just name them.......
 
The above deserves to be read......and does a good job of presenting exactly why we should leave....

Brexit and the Globalization Trilemma
I have not written much on Brexit because I do not have a strong or particularly well-informed view of it. My personal hope is that Britain will choose to remain in the EU – but that is as much because of a belief that without Britain the EU will likely become less democratic and more wrong-headed as it is because of the likely economic costs of Brexit.

Yes, I do think exit poses significant economic risk to Britain (and possibly to the world economy), though I believe there are very large margins of uncertainty around the quantitative prognostications presented by the U.K. Treasury and many British economists. But there are also serious questions posed about the nature of democracy and self-government in the EU as presently constituted.

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (AEP) has now written a remarkable piece that makes the political case for Brexit. AEP makes clear that he has little in common with the jingoistic and nativist tone of the Brexit campaign. The distortions and lies promoted by the Brexiteers aside, the referendum does raise a serious question about how Britain will be governed:

“Stripped of distractions, it comes down to an elemental choice: whether to restore the full self-government of this nation, or to continue living under a higher supranational regime, ruled by a European Council that we do not elect in any meaningful sense, and that the British people can never remove, even when it persists in error.



We are deciding whether to be guided by a Commission with quasi-executive powers that operates more like the priesthood of the 13th Century papacy than a modern civil service; and whether to submit to a European Court (ECJ) that claims sweeping supremacy, with no right of appeal.

It is whether you think the nation states of Europe are the only authentic fora of democracy, be it in this country, or Sweden, or the Netherlands, or France ….”

The trouble is that the EU is more of a technocracy than a democracy (AEP calls it a nomenklatura). An obvious alternative to Brexit would be to construct a full-fledged European democracy. AEP mentions Yanis Varoufakis, a Brexit opponent, who has argued for something like “a United States of Europe with a genuine parliament holding an elected president to account.” But as AEP says,

“I do not think this is remotely possible, or would be desirable if it were, but it is not on offer anyway. Six years into the eurozone crisis there is no a flicker of fiscal union: no eurobonds, no Hamiltonian redemption fund, no pooling of debt, and no budget transfers. The banking union belies its name. Germany and the creditor states have dug in their heels.”

All of this is of course what I tried to highlight with my “political trilemma of the global economy,” reproduced below.


The trilemma suggests democracy is compatible with deep economic integration only if democracy is appropriately transnationalized as well – the solution that Varoufakis favors. AEP, by contrast, believes a democratic and accountable European super-state is neither feasible, nor even desirable.

Note that the tension that arises between democracy and globalization is not straightforwardly a consequence of the fact that the latter constrains national sovereignty. There are ways in which external constraints – as with democratic delegation – can enhance rather than limit democracy. But there are also many circumstances under which external rules do not satisfy the conditions of democratic delegation. See the discussion here.

AEP believes that European rules clearly lie within the latter category. In addition to the European bureaucracy (and its treatment of the euro crisis), he is especially bothered by the broad authority the European Court of Justice (ECJ) has over national policies, without right to appeal. As for Britain’s opt-out: “Need I add too that Britain's opt-out from the Charter under Protocol 30 - described as "absolutely clear" by Tony Blair on the floor of the Commons - has since been swept aside by the ECJ.”

I do not have a clear view on the substance of AEP’s argument – as to whether Britain’s self-government is sufficiently impaired by the EU, or its opt-out has been nullified by the ECJ. But it is clear that the EU rules needed to underpin a single European market have extended significantly beyond what can be supported by democratic legitimacy. Whether Britain’s opt out remains effective or not, the political trilemma is at work. In AEP’s evocative language,

“The [European] Project bleeds the lifeblood of the national institutions, but fails to replace them with anything lovable or legitimate at a European level. It draws away charisma, and destroys it. This is how democracies die.”

I first thought of the globalization trilemma when I was asked to contribute to a special millennial issue of the Journal of Economic Perspectives (in 2000), where I was asked to speculate about the nature of the world economy in 100 years’ time. I presented it as the political analogue of the macroeconomic trilemma of the open-economy well known to economists (we can have at most two among monetary independence, free capital flows, currency pegs). I thought then, and still do, that it will increasingly shape the evolution of world’s political economy.

At the time, I viewed the EU as the only part of the world economy that could successfully combine hyperglobalization (“the single market”) with democracy through the creation of a European demos and polity. I expressed the same view, somewhat more cautiously, in my 2011 book The Globalization Paradox.

But I now have to admit that I was wrong in this view (or hope, perhaps). The manner in which Germany and Angela Merkel, in particular, reacted to the crisis in Greece and other indebted countries buried any chance of a democratic Europe. She might have presented the crisis as one of interdependence (“we all contributed to it, and we are all in it together”), using it as an opportunity to make a leap towards greater political union. Instead, she treated it as a morality play, pitting responsible northerners against lazy, profligate southerners, and to be dealt with by European technocrats accountable to no one serving up disastrous economic remedies.

As Brexit opponents keep reminding us, the economic costs of Britain’s departure could be indeed sizable. Reasonable people have to make up their own mind as to how those costs stack up against the damage to democratic self-government. EAP is fully aware that his choice entails taking a “calculated risk.”

My generation of Turks looked at the European Union as an example to emulate and a beacon of democracy. It saddens me greatly that it has now come to stand for a style of rule-making and governance so antithetical to democracy that even informed and reasonable observers like AEP view departure from it as the only option for repairing democracy.

It's important to note in all of this of course that innovation is what tends to drive an economy forwards. That's a widely accepted truth going back to Schumpeter. Innovation is largely a numbers game these days, because the more people you have the greater spread of minds you can devote to a task, whilst access to a substantial market helps those innovations grow. America was a great example of that as they had a single market across the United States, coupled with high immigration levels. China is beginning to see the fruits of a similar phenomenon at the moment as they evolve from a copy cat economy to a truly innovative one. Whether we like it or now, the EU was an attempt to give heft to nations that wouldn't enjoy much heft on their own.

I don't think Rodrik is advocating the end of globalisation at all, and it strikes me as ironic that it appears to be right wing populists that are taking us down an anti-globalisation route, especially as globalisation does, if nothing else, widen the divide between the educated and the un-educated, with the latter traditionally being the left's constituency. Instead it's the right that have spoken to that group by stoking nationalist messages.
 
My concern with that though is the lack of public understanding. We've seen it for years with regards to GM food. It sounds terrible, but few actually know whether it is or not. Does the average person know what chlorinated chickens are or indeed what part of the sterilization process they fit into? It's similar with many of the issues raised in the article, from who settles legal disputes (essentially referees the system) to the daft 'privatisation' of the NHS fears.
I work in Food Safety and have decent knowledge of the poultry industry. The issue of "chlorinated chickens" has been widely misreported in the press and by politicians. The EU did not ban the use of chlorine washing because they saw any great danger to consumers from it, but because they thought it could lead to complacency in the overall manufacturing process and poorer conditions for the birds generally. Manufactures could think "we don't need to bother with any hygiene precautions because the birds will be sprayed with chlorine anyway." This seems to be the attitude in the States, where there is no animal welfare legislation as we know it in Europe and the birds are kept in conditions that would not be allowed over here. Funnily, there has been no mention of fruit, veg and salads being washed with chlorine in the UK and Europe at similar concentrations to those used in America on chickens. I suspect there will be many equivalent reports over the next few years across many industries, based on little or no understanding of the actual issues involved but intended to alarm the general public and to make a pro- or anti-Brexit point.
 
It's important to note in all of this of course that innovation is what tends to drive an economy forwards. That's a widely accepted truth going back to Schumpeter. Innovation is largely a numbers game these days, because the more people you have the greater spread of minds you can devote to a task, whilst access to a substantial market helps those innovations grow. America was a great example of that as they had a single market across the United States, coupled with high immigration levels. China is beginning to see the fruits of a similar phenomenon at the moment as they evolve from a copy cat economy to a truly innovative one. Whether we like it or now, the EU was an attempt to give heft to nations that wouldn't enjoy much heft on their own.

I don't think Rodrik is advocating the end of globalisation at all, and it strikes me as ironic that it appears to be right wing populists that are taking us down an anti-globalisation route, especially as globalisation does, if nothing else, widen the divide between the educated and the un-educated, with the latter traditionally being the left's constituency. Instead it's the right that have spoken to that group by stoking nationalist messages.

But the article was referring to the death of democracy within the EU........
 
And it's in our tap-water...still wouldn't touch industrial food-stuff with a barge pole personally, but especially from the US because o the lack of precautionary principle.



I work in Food Safety and have decent knowledge of the poultry industry. The issue of "chlorinated chickens" has been widely misreported in the press and by politicians. The EU did not ban the use of chlorine washing because they saw any great danger to consumers from it, but because they thought it could lead to complacency in the overall manufacturing process and poorer conditions for the birds generally. Manufactures could think "we don't need to bother with any hygiene precautions because the birds will be sprayed with chlorine anyway." This seems to be the attitude in the States, where there is no animal welfare legislation as we know it in Europe and the birds are kept in conditions that would not be allowed over here. Funnily, there has been no mention of fruit, veg and salads being washed with chlorine in the UK and Europe at similar concentrations to those used in America on chickens. I suspect there will be many equivalent reports over the next few years across many industries, based on little or no understanding of the actual issues involved but intended to alarm the general public and to make a pro- or anti-Brexit point.
 
But the article was referring to the death of democracy within the EU........

From what I understood, it was discussing how his theory applied to Brexit. and it runs fundamental to any discussions of what people voted for and what happens after Brexit. For instance, do you think leave voters would be happy if the government took Brexit to mean we didn't have enough globalisation and opened up even further than we were via the EU? The Singapore model I think it's called. Obviously I haven't spoke to all 17 million voters, but instinctively I don't believe that's the case, and that many leave voters acted in protest of globalisation as they saw it.
 
There just isn't the votes in the House of Commons to supoort a Hard Brexit of any kind. The only deal that will pass is to continue the Customs Union and Single Market.

Will the Tories accept that or risk getting torn apart in a general election?

UKIP are in a mess and a divided Tory party will have almighty trouble with selecting candidates and marshalling their party workers.

As much as I am concerned about some of Jeremy Corbyn's policies I'd do anything now to stop a dangerous Brexit
 
I'm probably confused or something here. He appears to be criticizing people for saying if we leave the EU with no deal that food imported from the EU will probably have a tariff (and therefore be more expensive), whilst countering that argument by saying his own food will be cheaper because he'll get most of his food from outside the EU.

Aside from that (and the strange fixation on Oxbridge), I doubt you'll find too many people that don't think the CAP is a mess. It's been a mess for blooming ages and is quite probably the worst aspect of the EU. The argument surely though is do you throw that baby out with the bathwater or do you attempt to reform the bad bit (CAP) whilst keeping the numerous other good bits?
The point is the lies that are being peddled by those who want to line their own pockets, rather than thinking of what's best for the general public. In other words the people who voted. Both for Brexit and the government.
 
Last edited:
There just isn't the votes in the House of Commons to supoort a Hard Brexit of any kind. The only deal that will pass is to continue the Customs Union and Single Market.

Will the Tories accept that or risk getting torn apart in a general election?

UKIP are in a mess and a divided Tory party will have almighty trouble with selecting candidates and marshalling their party workers.

As much as I am concerned about some of Jeremy Corbyn's policies I'd do anything now to stop a dangerous Brexit

And there you have it. Politicians in power are concerned for themselves, not the general public.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top