Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

Ok, so we're taking back control from twits in Brussels, except Whitehall is also full of twits? People who devote their lives to figuring this stuff out are less informed than those who do their sums on the back of a cigarette packet?

Bruce, don’t be so black and white. I have the greatest respect for our civil service. But those at the top also have their own agendas and priorities, as shown by the ex heads this week. All I pointed out is that their forecasts are rarely accurate, just like anyone else doing forecasts. When there is a crisis the civil service will always rise to the challenge, however when there is something they are against then they will slow everything down and disparage objectives and outcomes if they do not fit in with their own objectives........

 

[peteblue]

I see that the issue of the UK’s MEP’s is still causing concern. The proposal is for 46 to be distributed (no doubt to the bigger countries) and 27 to be transnational (the next step in creating a USE). Heaven forbid that they take advantage and do away with 73 taxpayer funded (salary, expenses, pension) jobs for the elite..........

 

[Charlie Sweet]

The opposite of what ? and where is your supporting proof........

You asked a question the other day, about European experience etc, and myself and several others on here replied to you. Did we pass the test ?.......

You said we'd be fine under WTO rules. I have seen and read the plentiful reports saying it would be economically damaging. Clearly all summarised and in the news recently with the government's own experts agreeing:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonar...the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.wqG9jqZm9#.wv0gn75Kg

My question was can you point to any serious supporting evidence for the idea that "we'll be just fine under WTO rules"?

On the European experience question apologies I had a mad weekend. I had forgotten all about it. I'll look now

 

[Charlie Sweet]

@peteblue @Gwladysstreetlad @Joey66 @Old Blue 2

Out of interest have any of you lived in Europe or studied in Europe? Or even a gap year travelling?

With two daughters one of the (many) factors influencing my Remain vote was to seek to give them the chance to either study abroad full-time or, at least, to spend a year in Europe as part of their degrees.

I have never seen a Leave argument that says it won't be a lot tougher to study/work in Europe after Brexit. And that's without all the issues relating to the absence now of shared higher education funding and research programmes.

Do you speak any European languages? Everyone seems agreed that linguistic skills are key in the modern world and I can't think how much more difficult it would have been for me to become fluent in another language if I hadnt have spent a brilliant year there in 96 studying there.

Of course Chinese and Japanese and the like are very important languages but given we have Europe on our doorstep I can only share my personal experience that it was challenging enough for a 20 yr old living 2 hours away never mind 12+ hours away in a much more alien culture!

I'd love to hear your reasons why and how European travel and study is going to be better and easier after Brexit?!

What the hell has that got to do with the EU both my children have been to Paris - the parisiasians awful millitant people v the English - rude- pig ignorant that was their good points I was told outside Paris the French people were far nicer
Again though what has that got to do with the EU elite in a polictical currupt union???....

It's got everything to do with the wider benefits of being part of a European Union Joey. Did you children study or work in Paris or did they go there on a holiday?

My personal experience is the French are a proud people and very comfortable in their own skin. If some take that as arrogance then so be it. The English also have a certain reputation you know?!?

My point is that open borders is great for the young and economically mobile to travel, study and expand their businesses beyond national frontiers. After Brexit (if it happens) that will be a lot tougher. That's bad in my books.

I will provide a limited answer to the above. Some on here who know the additional information will fill in the gaps for themselves. Taking your paragraphs in sequence.

1. Never lived or studied in Europe. However in the 1980s and 1990s I travelled a couple of times a year to Germany for a week or more on projects that I still work on up to present.

2. While it is nice for someone to study abroad, it is not (as I have said in a previous post) the be-all-and-end-all of education or work.

3. See '2' above.

4. I took French for 7 years at school up to 'A' level. I took German for 2 1/2 years at night school and picked up quite a lot more during my travels to Germany as mentioned above. I still use German up to present. If I were to go there, I think within a couple of days I would get by OK.

5. This is a personal statement, Charlie, so it needs no further comment from me.

6. Who has said European travel would get better after Brexit? It will probably go onto the same basis as travel to non-EU countried at present. That is all.

If you open up your PM/conversation on here, I can message you with more info.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't mean to imply that travel was "the be all and end all" of education or work. I just think it's a very positive benefit of being in the EU. It's certainly not a negative and we're facing the prospects and possibilities being diminished for our future generations. That's very wrong in my book.

If you've picked up languages so well without really living in the native country then fair play - but I do think that's more of an exception to the norm. Ref #6 I think it would be helpful if Brexiteers would acknowledge it will be harder/worse than it is currently to live/work/travel/conduct business in the EU.

The opportunity never really presented itself or even occurred to me if I'm honest. I left school and went straight into work. Holidays were a rare luxury for me, I travelled a bit with my parents as a kid but was only able to start travelling abroad again once I was financially secure enough to do in the last couple of years. I have visted a fair bit of Europe though, perticuarly Germany. The idea of living abroad has never really appealed to me if I'm honest as after a few weeks anywhere I always long for home.

For what it's worth pal, I very much doubt we will see the end of freedom of moment. The "negotiations" will end with us all carrying on as though the vote never took place but high words will be thrown about and impressive sounding arguments will be used for Taresa May to claim victory when she has in fact achieved anything but that.

I do believe though that people used to travel, study and work all around Europe prior to our joining the EU. Plenty of Americans and other non EU people travel all over the world to work and study and manage ok.

I can speak enough (very) basic German and French enough to be understood but thats about as far as I ever got. If i had the time to learn a new language though I'd sooner it be Chinese, Hindi or Arabic as if we are going to talk about the future I believe these languages will be a corner stone for buissness. Not to mention the fact that I find the idea of learning somthing more alian (as you put it) fascinating.

I doubt European travel will be any more difficult after the non-event of Brexit for the reason I gave above.

Fair play to you and thanks for replying. My main point in response is the one that I gave above - I do think it will be a lot harder after Brexit that it is now to say either study for a year in France or to set up a business in Spain. Yes I can in theory send my kids off to study in Brazil or China and me to set up a business outpost there as well - but it's a hell of a lot more hassle than doing so now in the EU.

I do agree with you about the benefits of learning a non-European language but that's not really in question here - the ability of a UK child to do that is unchanged after Brexit.

I have spent probably 25% of my working life in Europe, 15% in the USA and 10% in China, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Africa, India etc. The other 50% I just wasted away in different parts of the U.K.

I studied French, Latin, Spanish and Greek formally and Italian, German and Japanese through work. I am crap at languages, I know I am crap.

3 of my 4 children are married to an American, a Romanian, and a Philippine. Oh and 2 of them have lived abroad for years....

We all hold degrees and higher degrees

Nobody said European travel or study would be easier, but neither will it become impossible.

I have dealt with many differing cultures on a regular basis, I managed and oversaw globally based multi cultural hi tech development programmes for over 40 years.

Now, what was your point again........

Same point again really - I know you're not saying European travel will be easier after Brexit (which may or may not happen) but you seem to refuse to acknowledge that it will be significantly harder.

In terms of pan-EU study my wife does a lot of work with a big UK university and it's really apparent there that the UK will suffer hugely from exiting what is currently a well-coordinated European higher education sector.

In terms of your background I'm a little surprised if I tell the truth as I'd have thought with such a cosmopolitan make-up you'd be more atune to see the EU as a "glass half full" and not as one "half empty"!

 

[Joey66]

It's got everything to do with the wider benefits of being part of a European Union Joey. Did you children study or work in Paris or did they go there on a holiday?

My personal experience is the French are a proud people and very comfortable in their own skin. If some take that as arrogance then so be it. The English also have a certain reputation you know?!?

My point is that open borders is great for the young and economically mobile to travel, study and expand their businesses beyond national frontiers. After Brexit (if it happens) that will be a lot tougher. That's bad in my books.



Thanks for the reply. I didn't mean to imply that travel was "the be all and end all" of education or work. I just think it's a very positive benefit of being in the EU. It's certainly not a negative and we're facing the prospects and possibilities being diminished for our future generations. That's very wrong in my book.

If you've picked up languages so well without really living in the native country then fair play - but I do think that's more of an exception to the norm. Ref #6 I think it would be helpful if Brexiteers would acknowledge it will be harder/worse than it is currently to live/work/travel/conduct business in the EU.



Fair play to you and thanks for replying. My main point in response is the one that I gave above - I do think it will be a lot harder after Brexit that it is now to say either study for a year in France or to set up a business in Spain. Yes I can in theory send my kids off to study in Brazil or China and me to set up a business outpost there as well - but it's a hell of a lot more hassle than doing so now in the EU.

I do agree with you about the benefits of learning a non-European language but that's not really in question here - the ability of a UK child to do that is unchanged after Brexit.



Same point again really - I know you're not saying European travel will be easier after Brexit (which may or may not happen) but you seem to refuse to acknowledge that it will be significantly harder.

In terms of pan-EU study my wife does a lot of work with a big UK university and it's really apparent there that the UK will suffer hugely from exiting what is currently a well-coordinated European higher education sector.

In terms of your background I'm a little surprised if I tell the truth as I'd have thought with such a cosmopolitan make-up you'd be more atune to see the EU as a "glass half full" and not as one "half empty"!

The new French leader admitted he would hate to put a referendum to his people over the EU as he guessed it would be an out vote - do you remember on the border to stop our farmers Lamb entering France they stopped the wagons and burnt it they are a more protective country than us will ever be - no my children went on holiday - their was a mass march on as the then French government where trying to raise the retirement age to 60 years old !
Another fault with the EU no consistency with rules - now again they want to bully us in the transitional period of leaving after us paying up a dispicapable Polictical organisation hence the main reason 17.4 million who voted Out!

 

[Joey66]

Serious question Pete - why do you say that? Where's your supporting proof? It's just I've seen the opposite.



Really Joey? Go on then, just for fun, point me to evidence that supports the argument that a hard Brexit / No deal scenario is good for the UK.

Many professors have stated that fact I will get you a link on my main computer later!

 

[Joey66]

I fixed that for you Joe. You're basically saying that the people tasked with informing the government's position on Brexit don't matter to you. Indeed, the very people we would be 'taking back control' via, don't matter to you. They're the ones you want to give power back to ffs, and you're now saying we should ignore them as well.

My point is Bruce you can load any question to get the answer you want off Google!

 

[Charlie Sweet]

The new French leader admitted he would hate to put a referendum to his people over the EU as he guessed it would be an out vote - do you remember on the border to stop our farmers Lamb entering France they stopped the wagons and burnt it they are a more protective country than us will ever be - no my children went on holiday - their was a mass march on as the then French government where trying to raise the retirement age to 60 years old !
Another fault with the EU no consistency with rules - now again they want to bully us in the transitional period of leaving after us paying up a dispicapable Polictical organisation hence the main reason 17.4 million who voted Out!

The French have a much stronger sense of identity and national pride that the English do. They have a stronger manufacturing and agricultural base and the working classes appear to be treated with greater respect. That's a good thing isn't it? And that's all been managed under the EU rules.

On the working/studying abroad - would you not see that if you or your family haven't experienced it personally then you've not seen first hand how good and beneficial it is to our younger generations? And yet you've voted for Brexit to make it harder for the young to enjoy those benefits.

Many professors have stated that fact I will get you a link on my main computer later!

My point is Bruce you can load any question to get the answer you want off Google!

Looking forward to this Joey!

 

[Joey66]

The French have a much stronger sense of identity and national pride that the English do. They have a stronger manufacturing and agricultural base and the working classes appear to be treated with greater respect. That's a good thing isn't it? And that's all been managed under the EU rules.

On the working/studying abroad - would you not see that if you or your family haven't experienced it personally then you've not seen first hand how good and beneficial it is to our younger generations? And yet you've voted for Brexit to make it harder for the young to enjoy those benefits.





Looking forward to this Joey!

took 30 seconds to get these on Google
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-deal-would-not-be-a-disaster-says-thinktank
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/27/post-brexit-trade-can-thrive-under-wto-rules/
https://globalbritain.co.uk//wp-con...Soft-Copy-Going-global-without-delay-Body.pdf
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...t-10-year-tariff-free-trade-deal-negotiations
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-latest-UK-EU-news-David-Davis-talks-Brussels
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41806690
https://www.li.com/activities/publi...cess-and-negotiation-of-free-trade-agreements
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will-not-cause-uk-trade-disruption-wto-boss-10632803

 

[Joey66]

Many professors have stated that fact I will get you a link on my main computer later!

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2017/0...rive-outside-the-european-union/#.Wnrz5qhl9PY
many more below simply loaded the question in google

 

[Bruce Wayne]

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2017/0...rive-outside-the-european-union/#.Wnrz5qhl9PY
many more below simply loaded the question in google

Have you actually read any of these Joe?

 

[Joey66]

Have you actually read any of these Joe?

You can probably pick hoes in them Bruce under interpretation we trade 48 percent with the EU ATM forecast to fall - the richest global players are indeed hampering as the EU is a member of the WTO - they dictate tarrifs when we leave that problem goes away - the leaked threatening document today is a shot acroos our ability to trade outside the EU in the implementations period they would not like us to prosper as more countries will want to leave an albatross that currently hangs around our necks!

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Have you actually read any of these Joe?

He really hasn't.

First one I went to at random; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41806690

Economy Secretary Ken Skates travelled to the body's Geneva headquarters. Mr Skates said the implications of a "no deal" scenario were not "pretty".

He repeated the Welsh Government's opposition to a "no deal" Brexit.

"We've been working with academics, we've been working in particular with Cardiff Business School, looking at the implications of a 'no deal' scenario and it's not very pretty," Mr Skates said.

First Minister Carwyn Jones has previously claimed that farming in Wales would "fall off the edge of the cliff" if the UK had to rely on WTO rules after Brexit.

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Here's another one quoted:

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will-not-cause-uk-trade-disruption-wto-boss-10632803

Basically says "Britain will not face a trade "vacuum or a disruption", however tough its exit from the European Union." "The less turbulence the better. The global economy today is not in the best shape for us to be introducing turbulence."

So trade will continue under WTO rules but there's no comment about the net effect on the UK.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He really hasn't.

First one I went to at random; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41806690

Economy Secretary Ken Skates travelled to the body's Geneva headquarters. Mr Skates said the implications of a "no deal" scenario were not "pretty".

He repeated the Welsh Government's opposition to a "no deal" Brexit.

"We've been working with academics, we've been working in particular with Cardiff Business School, looking at the implications of a 'no deal' scenario and it's not very pretty," Mr Skates said.

First Minister Carwyn Jones has previously claimed that farming in Wales would "fall off the edge of the cliff" if the UK had to rely on WTO rules after Brexit.

The last one he posted up doesn't suggest that leaving the EU will boost the economy either. He's not making a particularly persuasive argument. I'm feeling like I could offer classes in Googling or something here.