Current Affairs EU In or Out

[bobbydigital]

Which bit of ‘it’s a negotiation’ do you not understand. Davis is negotiating against the EU and 27 countries, meanwhile Labour, Scotland, Wales and the remoaner class are doing their very best to undermine our country’s negotiating position. In previous times it would have been called for what it is, treason. We are leaving the EU, these negotiations will affect every single person in our country and it is incredibly important that we get a good deal. The way to do this is to keep all options open. Normally it would also help if our own people were not fighting for the other side. Remember that this treacherous behaviour will cost every person real money, your money, our money. It’s about time people grew up and realised exactly whose side they should be on, this is not a game or a bit of fun, this is deadly serious....".

Ahh, of course. Everything that goes wrong with leaving is actually nothing to do with leaving. It is everyone else's fault except the people who voted leave. Makes sense.

You seem a bit worried things might go wrong? What should us everyday Joe's of the "remoaner class" be doing to help?

 

[peteblue]

Ahh, of course. Everything that goes wrong with leaving is actually nothing to do with leaving. It is everyone else's fault except the people who voted leave. Makes sense.

You seem a bit worried things might go wrong? What should us everyday Joe's of the "remoaner class" be doing to help?

Just stop moaning and giving the EU encouragement. If they believe we are weak they will give the worst deal possible so that the weak minded will reject it, panic and try to reverse our vote. It’s what they do, they have done it many times before. This cynical non movement of talks is all part of it. The rolling out of the OECD and IMF for project fear has been done before. We are now entering project fear 2. They believe that there are enough remoaners to reverse our decision. They may be disappointed........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Just stop moaning and giving the EU encouragement. If they believe we are weak they will give the worst deal possible so that the weak minded will reject it, panic and try to reverse our vote. It’s what they do, they have done it many times before. This cynical non movement of talks is all part of it. The rolling out of the OECD and IMF for project fear has been done before. We are now entering project fear 2. They believe that there are enough remoaners to reverse our decision. They may be disappointed........

It's not a war Pete It's just one view, I accept that, but I was speaking yesterday to a Polish lady (who lives and works in Hungary), and she cried on the day of the vote. No European that I've met hates the British. Indeed, we're widely admired throughout Europe in my experience, but they are generally saddened and confused by what's going on.

 

[peteblue]

It's not a war Pete It's just one view, I accept that, but I was speaking yesterday to a Polish lady (who lives and works in Hungary), and she cried on the day of the vote. No European that I've met hates the British. Indeed, we're widely admired throughout Europe in my experience, but they are generally saddened and confused by what's going on.

Because no one in Europe has a clue as to why we voted leave. There has been little understanding or debate from Juncker and Co and even less at the national level, like some on here they think it’s because of what was written on the side of a bus or are getting a cynical message that we are all racists. The arrogance of Brussels is reflected in their current negotiating position, do nothing and watch the brits cave in. We keep getting the message of cliff edges, no deals, when all they want is money, as much as possible and for as long as possible. We even got the ‘will the aeroplanes be able to fly’ before they played the OECD card, yet they chose to ignore that almost all of the EU’s financial services will still be in London and without a deal they will be stuffed.

Those of us who voted to join the Common Market/EEC/EU were more than happy with the original set up, but the unbridled centralisation of Power, the rush to become a Superstate and the continual addition of countries while ignoring the wishes of the people of Europe has seen people like myself, once good Europeans, turn away. The current behaviour of their EU leaders towards us after having been partners for 40 years will do no one any good. It was always going to come to this I suppose, so better to have a clean break now and work out a new relationship......

 

[Harryflashman]

Because no one in Europe has a clue as to why we voted leave.

This isn’t a criticism of you , old blue or any other leave voters but it’s not just the EU that struggle . I’m sure you’ve got a perfectly reasoned rationale for your decision but I think many people of a differing view haven’t a clue either .

 

[peteblue]

This isn’t a criticism of you , old blue or any other leave voters but it’s not just the EU that struggle . I’m sure you’ve got a perfectly reasoned rationale for your decision but I think many people of a differing view haven’t a clue either .

There’s over 1400 pages of clues in this very thread. It’s exactly the same at the General Election, some of us see Corbyn lies for what they are, others see them as progressive politics, we will never convince each other, either you get it or you don’t I’m afraid........

 

[Harryflashman]

There’s over 1400 pages of clues in this very thread. It’s exactly the same at the General Election, some of us see Corbyn lies for what they are, others see them as progressive politics, we will never convince each other, either you get it or you don’t I’m afraid........

To be fair mate I tried to edit the post but I’d left it too long . It was a casual aside actually , my point was I suppose was ultimately you either believe in something or you don’t . I find the Brexit position baffling and you find mine the same I’m sure , like you say it depends on your side of the battle .

The only slight difference I will say , is that you do seem willing to put aside concerns or potential financial harm to get what you want . You yourself in this thread said you’d be prepared to sacrifice the 8% GDP to get Brexit even if , in fairness , you didn’t believe that’s what would happen . From my point of view if I knew remain was financial disaster and recession I’d have to think about whether it was the right choice . My position and perhaps that of other remains may be less , in some cases , about ideology. Of course I could be wrong .

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

To be fair mate I tried to edit the post but I’d left it too long . It was a casual aside actually , my point was I suppose was ultimately you either believe in something or you don’t . I find the Brexit position baffling and you find mine the same I’m sure , like you say it depends on your side of the battle .

The only slight difference I will say , is that you do seem willing to put aside concerns or potential financial harm to get what you want . You yourself in this thread said you’d be prepared to sacrifice the 8% GDP to get Brexit even if , in fairness , you didn’t believe that’s what would happen . From my point of view if I knew remain was financial disaster and recession I’d have to think about whether it was the right choice . My position and perhaps that of other remains may be less , in some cases , about ideology. Of course I could be wrong .

Bingo.

Leave was always a leap into the unknown, virtually all of the research into the economic effects of leaving the EU said it would damage the economy. Brexiteers simply didn't care. No-one could spell out what Brexit would actually look like, Brexiteers simply didn't care.
People showed the negative effects of leaving the customs union, single market and losing freedom of movement, Brexiteers simply didn't care.....

 

[Number_25]

Yeah, things are going sour.

Laughing stock of Europe.

Thanks Nige.

 

[peteblue]

To be fair mate I tried to edit the post but I’d left it too long . It was a casual aside actually , my point was I suppose was ultimately you either believe in something or you don’t . I find the Brexit position baffling and you find mine the same I’m sure , like you say it depends on your side of the battle .

The only slight difference I will say , is that you do seem willing to put aside concerns or potential financial harm to get what you want . You yourself in this thread said you’d be prepared to sacrifice the 8% GDP to get Brexit even if , in fairness , you didn’t believe that’s what would happen . From my point of view if I knew remain was financial disaster and recession I’d have to think about whether it was the right choice . My position and perhaps that of other remains may be less , in some cases , about ideology. Of course I could be wrong .

Sometimes you have to do what you feel is right. The point I made about the GDP was to show that even if we were to lose all trade to Europe (which is impossible as even in a no deal scenario we still trade but under WTO) it’s still only 8%. What will happen is that in a worst case condition we trade with the EU under WTO and also increase our RoW trade at a faster rate than we can do today. There will be no financial disaster. Our economy will grow at a much faster rate than even it has. We can open up the U.K. market for cheaper imports than we get from the EU and improve the lives of those at the bottom of society. The EU doesn’t understand free markets, it’s all about protectionism and control, just look at the CAP. It’s only growth will come from adding more countries into this political union. I don’t gamble, I am a rational thinker and don’t follow slogans or fads, and I’m not hung up on some ideology, I’m in this purely for the benefit of the U.K., my children and granddaughter.......

 

[Ron Swanson]

A


Which bit of ‘it’s a negotiation’ do you not understand. Davis is negotiating against the EU and 27 countries, meanwhile Labour, Scotland, Wales and the remoaner class are doing their very best to undermine our country’s negotiating position. In previous times it would have been called for what it is, treason. We are leaving the EU, these negotiations will affect every single person in our country and it is incredibly important that we get a good deal. The way to do this is to keep all options open. Normally it would also help if our own people were not fighting for the other side. Remember that this treacherous behaviour will cost every person real money, your money, our money. It’s about time people grew up and realised exactly whose side they should be on, this is not a game or a bit of fun, this is deadly serious....".

Talking about infighting is rich when you use the term 'remoaner' derogatorily.

The 'remoaners' ARE trying to get what we see to be the best deal for the country, and they feel the best deal is to retract article 50 and remain in the EU. We are not siding with the EU, but we are recognising the negotiations for the absolute omnishambles they are. We are very much fighting for our side and our interests. Should we sit back and let it continue or voice our disapproval? And the EU don't need to look at your 'remoaners' to sense weakness - anyone who cannot see the weaknesses in our country and it's governance has no business in politics.

And why wouldn't the EU give us the worst possible deal? Why would they pander to the UK instead of getting the best possible deal for the interests of their remaining 27 nations? We voted to leave, they didn't kick us out. It's ludicrous to expect them to give us anything that isn't in their interests. If they give us a giant f*** you, it's nothing less than we deserve.

 

[bobbydigital]

Just stop moaning and giving the EU encouragement. If they believe we are weak they will give the worst deal possible so that the weak minded will reject it, panic and try to reverse our vote. It’s what they do, they have done it many times before. This cynical non movement of talks is all part of it. The rolling out of the OECD and IMF for project fear has been done before. We are now entering project fear 2. They believe that there are enough remoaners to reverse our decision. They may be disappointed........

Unfortunately mate it's blindingly obvious how weak our position is. Juncker and co don't need to read message boards, listen to conversations or whatever you think they are doing to figure that out.

They don't need a deal as much as we do. They won't want to make leaving easy. They hold all the cards.

I know you are going to disagree, try and spin it, blame everyone else etc but look, that is the reality and no amount of mindlessly saying this is smart makes it smart.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What will happen is that in a worst case condition we trade with the EU under WTO and also increase our RoW trade at a faster rate than we can do today. There will be no financial disaster. Our economy will grow at a much faster rate than even it has. We can open up the U.K. market for cheaper imports than we get from the EU and improve the lives of those at the bottom of society. The EU doesn’t understand free markets, it’s all about protectionism and control, just look at the CAP. It’s only growth will come from adding more countries into this political union. I don’t gamble, I am a rational thinker and don’t follow slogans or fads, and I’m not hung up on some ideology, I’m in this purely for the benefit of the U.K., my children and granddaughter.......

Not sure I get your logic Pete. Companies in the UK aren't turning down trade with non-EU customers for the good of their health, so the government can only improve their lot by removing some of the barriers they have when trading overseas (whether tariff or non-tariff). I'm sure you are only too well aware that trade deals historically take a long time to arrange, and there has been precious little indication from other nations that we would get a trade deal easily, whether to replace what we have with the EU, or even to replicate what the EU has with the likes of Canada and Japan. These are all required to get to ground zero (ie replace what we're walking away from). That's a huge leap of faith, especially given that such negotiations would be led by the likes of Johnson, a man whose core skill seems to be annoying people and insulting them.

Regarding your comments about imports. Well, I'm dumbfounded to be honest as you've spent much of the preceding 1,400 pages saying how the crashing pound has been great for exports, yet now we're being told about a bright new future for importing?

Lastly, I don't suppose you'll find many who defend the CAP, and yes there are elements of the EU that are sops to national interests. No question at all. For CAP you can read Airbus as well. Politicians do that though don't they? I mean one of the reasons given for leaving was so that we can prop up failing industries. It's hard to reconcile this with an apparently anti-free market EU. It also overlooks key EU policies around things such as science and innovation. Unless you're speccy, this probably passed you by, but the official EU policy is open science, open innovation, open to the world. It underpins things like Horizon2020. It underpins a whole raft of digital policies. It has its roots in the free movement of people and ideas that are so important to the advancement of science.

Again, it's quite speccy so don't expect you to know, but most countries are trying to support startups to grow, and a big part of that is being able to trade internationally. Suffice to say, having contacts and support to tap into in whatever market you want to grow into helps, and the EU have projects to help do just that. I think there are around 30 British startups in it at the moment. Sure, you've got the likes of the UK India Business Council, which tries to do a similar thing with India, but it's poor and massively under-funded in comparison.

 

[peteblue]

Bingo.

Leave was always a leap into the unknown, virtually all of the research into the economic effects of leaving the EU said it would damage the economy. Brexiteers simply didn't care. No-one could spell out what Brexit would actually look like, Brexiteers simply didn't care.
People showed the negative effects of leaving the customs union, single market and losing freedom of movement, Brexiteers simply didn't care.....

Don’t be silly. Not one forecaster or Financial body called it correctly. Not the IMF, nor the OECD, nor our own chancellor nor the HMRC. No one saw the 2008 banking crisis and no one saw our exit from the ERM. Why believe them now......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Don’t be silly. Not one forecaster or Financial body called it correctly. Not the IMF, nor the OECD, nor our own chancellor nor the HMRC. No one saw the 2008 banking crisis and no one saw our exit from the ERM. Why believe them now......

It's estimated that 250,000 Americans die every year because their doctor makes a mistake. Tell me Pete, you fall sick tomorrow, would you not go to the doctor because they're wrong quite so often? Or would you go to the doctor because the alternative (going to a quack for instance) is even worse?