Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Brexit panicked the EU into doing a Japan deal, to which incidentally we will be a sovereign signatory just like every other EU deal. However, the proof is always in the pudding, standards, state aid etc etc, and this is even before the vested interests of car and rail manufacturers, Germany, Italy, Spain and France, start picking it to pieces.

We always ate NZ lamb, no ifs no buts. Our farms have adjusted to where we are today, but that was as a result of being in the EEC. However, we still import food and the Commonwealth can easily provide this......
The EU have been in formal negotiations with Japan for 4 years, but don't let facts get in the way like.

Go ask a UK sheep farmer what they think of a free trade deal with New Zealand btw, google it....
 
So the whole 17 million plus jumped to the words of Farage now? His singular statement is compelling evidence for 17 million plus? Don't make me laugh...

Also, you didn't answer my point. You called pete out on something, and then did exactly the same thing yourself. Couldn't you see that simple point? Or did you just ignore it because you didn't have an answer...?

It was quite clearly the biggest issue in the referendum. Blind Freddy could tell you that and the guy who lead the leave campaign literally did tell you that. Articles posted just above show you that as well.

Yes, not every single person voted leave to stop immigration, you and Pete didn't. I know that and I never said you or every leave voter did before you started making things up and ranting again. All I was saying is I don't think a lot of people that voted leave will be happy if immigration is still going up out of the EU.
 
Handy when you have to get it to the other side of the world I guess
would be mate, like are own more than likely frozen soon after butchering.
There seasons are different than are lambing season, here its December through to April depending were in the UK you are, theirs is July to September .
If are standards were the same we could supply them and the surrounding areas when when there's are out of season.
 
Who is the best at science in the world? what do they say?

Science and academia have by and large been heavily in the remain camp as science is increasingly a collaborative endeavour. Horizon2020 is a great example of that, and the Royal Society said only this morning that they very much hope the UK remains committed to this, both up until 2020 and whatever comes afterwards. They also very much want to retain access to the brightest people from around the world.

The same is largely true in the startup world. The UK provides a fantastic infrastructure for new business, with a fairly open marketplace, a strong finance industry and a supportive legal system. What we need to retain is a migration system that welcomes talented people, both into the universities that spawn so many startups, and into the new recruits that startups need to grow. There has been a whole lot of work done to help scale up small businesses, and openness of markets (for both commerce and talent) is regarded as key. Whether we'll get that post-Brexit is hard to say.
 
Science and academia have by and large been heavily in the remain camp as science is increasingly a collaborative endeavour. Horizon2020 is a great example of that, and the Royal Society said only this morning that they very much hope the UK remains committed to this, both up until 2020 and whatever comes afterwards. They also very much want to retain access to the brightest people from around the world.

The same is largely true in the startup world. The UK provides a fantastic infrastructure for new business, with a fairly open marketplace, a strong finance industry and a supportive legal system. What we need to retain is a migration system that welcomes talented people, both into the universities that spawn so many startups, and into the new recruits that startups need to grow. There has been a whole lot of work done to help scale up small businesses, and openness of markets (for both commerce and talent) is regarded as key. Whether we'll get that post-Brexit is hard to say.

Thanks, but i meant to put this in the climate change thread lol
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...in-disbelief-over-uks-leaked-brexit-proposals

It's the Guardian so I accept that it favours one side of the equation, but it certainly echoes the feedback from the EU citizens I know living here. There's just huge uncertainty at the moment, which makes it incredibly difficult to find long-term employment, much less buy a house or any of the other things that we rightly regard as important aspects of calling somewhere home. These are people that contribute tremendously to our society and they deserve better imo.
 
Why are so many Leave voters seemingly ashamed of this simple reality?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...in-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html


You'd better have a word with May as well, as she said the same thing..

Cue: they didn't ask all 17 million.....snooze


Oh dear, the old chestnut. Let's quote statistics to validate a point.

Except that, the statistics quoted are not worth a carrot. 3,000 people polled. Yeah, that's statistically valid. Some people never seem to grasp a basic understanding of how to advance a valid premise. And asking 3,000 people out of the whole population of the UK is like asking 10 people on the Gwladys Street a question, and then advancing that those views are those of the total Everton-supporting population!

OF COURSE, a certain %age of the population think that immigration should be controlled. The reasons why have been gone over again and again and again in this thread in the months past, and I'm not going to repeat them again here.

OF COURSE, there are a whole raft of other issues why people voted to leave, but the likes of you, Foot Long, and some others, are not interested in those - you simply push the immigration button time and time and time again. Boring...
 
Although the RSA kinda agree that the document leaked yesterday stinks the house down (this is the RSA whose boss penned May's report on employment incidentally)

Yesterday, a Home Office document proposing new post-Brexit immigration controls leaked to the Guardian. The document outlined intentions to introduce restrictions on low-skilled migration from the EU, arguing that their presence would solely be self-serving and not make life any better for UK residents. In response to criticism of the document from EU leaders and UK businesses, Prime Minister Theresa May fanned the flames of nationalist, anti-immigrant rhetoric, bending the truth about the impact of low-skilled migrants on the wages of low-skilled UK workers. This is now part of a pattern of spreading misinformation and pushing baseless policy that must be disrupted.

The Prime Minister rushed to the defence of the Home Office’s punishing post-Brexit immigration proposals by claiming that low skilled migrants depress wages at the bottom end of the labour market. Upon hearing this, Vince Cable (who was business secretary in the coalition government) spoke up about May’s history of denial regarding the true bearing of immigration. Cable recalled, “When I was business secretary there were up to nine studies that we looked at that took in all the academic evidence. It showed that immigration had very little impact on wages and employment. But this was suppressed by the Home Office under Theresa May because the results were inconvenient.” He added, “Overwhelming it has been the case that overseas workers were complementary rather than competitive to British workers.”

This is not the first instance of May standing up for an immigration policy that has no merit. Just last week, she continued to champion the inclusion of students in the net migration target she had devised while serving as Home Secretary even though the flawed figures underpinning the policy had been exposed. In particular, there was (rightly) significant coverage given to the overblown estimates of how many non-EU students were overstaying their visas. The Home Office released a report revising the estimate of students overstaying their visa from nearly 100,000 to under 5,000. It acknowledged that over 96 percent of these students departed in time, confirming what many experts – from economists to entrepreneurs – had been voicing for years.

The dissolution of evidence-based immigration policy
The discrepancy between past and present estimates of students overstaying their visa is especially shocking. How did they get is so wrong for so long?

To record how many people are arriving in and departing the UK, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) has been carrying out the International Passenger Survey (IPS), which was originally established in the 1960s as a travel and tourism poll. Britain is only one of two EU countries to rely on passenger questionnaires for data collection (the other being Cyprus). The IPS is conducted by randomly selecting travelers to interview throughout the day, but notably, this means that any students boarding red-eye, or overnight, flights won’t be captured.

As explained in the FT, estimating emigration based on survey data is also particularly difficult because those leaving may express uncertainty over when and if they are coming back (i.e. students who are job-hunting) and, until now, there was no comparable data source to check the IPS figures against. The ONS repeatedly warned that the survey had “inherent limitations” and was not designed to provide an accurate and detailed breakdown of net migration.

With the introduction of exit checks last year, the Home Office has finally been able to produce a credible data set to estimate how many students are overstaying their visa, which is why a drastically different picture has since emerged.

It’s not the outdated means by which the data was initially compiled that’s astounding; it’s the realisation that the Home Office persisted with its damaging net migration target in the full knowledge that the figures it cited in support of this policy were far from robust. The seeds of post-truth politics were sewn well before the Vote Leave’s campaign for Brexit; arguably, as alarming as the use of big data to target and manipulate voters, or the spread of fake news, is the dissolution of evidence-based policy.

The danger of using weak data (which is recognised as such by the institutions producing it, such as in the case of the ONS) to make risky political decisions is that it can undermine the credibility of those institutions if the policy backfires. Data is so often cherry-picked and manipulated for political gain that the public loses trust in its integrity, as well as in the institutions mining and analysing it. Our own government is a threat to democratic values when it belittles and belies experts, whether that’s Michael Gove declaring that the public is sick of experts or May knowingly misusing data from the ONS to defend and maintain her discredited immigration policies.

The psychology behind ignoring inconvenient truths
It may take years before May concedes that including students in the net migration target, let along the target itself, was misguided. When asked about the new figures, May denied that the Home Office grossly exaggerated the number of foreign students who fail to return home from the UK after their studies, instead insisting that the difference in numbers is actually proof that her policies are working.

While May was in the Home Office, however, her own colleagues, from George Osborne to Vince Cable, cast doubt on the statistics and the methods by which they had been collected; more recently, her own ministers Philip Hammond, Boris Johnson and Amber Rudd pressed May to change her policy for similar reasons, expressing concern about the impact on the economy. To ignore members of her own party and the coalition government she was a part of suggests she was driven by more than the evidence (or lack thereof). May appears to be making political decisions about immigration based on her gut rather than the strength of facts.

Yet, why would she, or any other politician for that matter, persist in pursuing policies even when confronted with evidence that they should be taking a different tack? Dr. Carol Tavris, a social psychologist from the University of California and author of “Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts,” explains that when some of us make an error in judgment that reflects poorly on us and this conflicts with our view of whom we are as people (i.e. “I’m competent, I’m moral”) – our brain tries to relieve this tension by immediately making excuses and trying to justify our actions. The more time and effort we invest in our mistakes, the more difficulty we have admitting and letting them go.

How to prevent warped truths from becoming warped policy
The takeaway here is that our leaders are fallible and their egos can get best of them, which is why we need a strong commitment to evidence-based policy in all domains – whether immigration, the economy, or the environment, for example – and more checks and balances in the system. Now is the time to amplify the voice of experts, not mute or distort them. As the Home Office’s latest blundering of its net migration target and post-Brexit immigration proposals fades from the news cycle, citizens and experts alike need to keep raising these as issues and trying to hold May to account for defending policies that defy reality.

In a post-truth world where fake news is rampant and populism is on the rise, we need to be able to believe that our politicians can be trusted to make policies that are grounded in evidence and recognised as legitimate by a wide range of experts rather than based on one person’s ideological vision or political ambitions.
 
Oh dear, the old chestnut. Let's quote statistics to validate a point.

Except that, the statistics quoted are not worth a carrot. 3,000 people polled. Yeah, that's statistically valid. Some people never seem to grasp a basic understanding of how to advance a valid premise. And asking 3,000 people out of the whole population of the UK is like asking 10 people on the Gwladys Street a question, and then advancing that those views are those of the total Everton-supporting population!

OF COURSE, a certain %age of the population think that immigration should be controlled. The reasons why have been gone over again and again and again in this thread in the months past, and I'm not going to repeat them again here.

OF COURSE, there are a whole raft of other issues why people voted to leave, but the likes of you, Foot Long, and some others, are not interested in those - you simply push the immigration button time and time and time again. Boring...

The irony that immigration and emigration numbers into the UK are performed via a survey will surely not be lost on you Old Blue.
 
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