Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

Err Pete you're making it too obvious now mert, why should they make any proposals this wasn't their doing?

It doesn't matter who's doing it was. The EU has quite a few borders already, and they seem quite happy to come up with various proposals for each one. They say that the border between NI and the Republic is important yet propose nothing or consider the UK proposal. That is just abdication......

 

[peteblue]

Either way Pete, you are an experienced business man, if I have read your posts correctly.

In what universe is acutting out your biggest customer/trading partner, before you have lined up a replacement ever a good idea? And then basing the decision to cut off said partner on a decision based on frankly, lies and propaganda?

Good question. When we leave the EU, the EU's biggest trading partner will be the UK. This works both ways. The UK is trying to do a sensible deal. If we don't get one we go go to WTO rules, just like we do with many other countries. We have a trade deficit with the EU, we do more trade and have a trade surplus with the RoW. We can grow our world trade much faster and to our benefit outside of the EU. The trade with the EU, deal or no deal, will not suddenly stop, it will just be different. Our GDP wont even notice any difference......

 

[peteblue]

If we put forward proposals and they don't reply (or make a counter-proposal which is unacceptable to the UK), and the clock keeps running, we are going to end up with an unplanned exit. It is difficult to see how that will not be chaos. But there seems little consensus even within the government as to what the goals should be for negotiations, which is not surprising since there was a huge range of positions put forward for Brexit in the referendum campaign - from the 'Norway' model to WTO terms only. So far, reaction from EU states seems less than lukewarm to anything proposed by the UK. Time has been wasted with an election. It is difficult to see anything which looks like progress.
And when we are on the outside of the EU, Northern Ireland and (probably first) Gibraltar are going to come under enormous pressure. If Ulster has no fenced border with the Irish Republic then how will duties be levied? If they are not, will we levy duties on everything coming to Holyhead, Fishguard or Liverpool from the island of Ireland?
Sorry Pete, but I remain firmly in the better the devil you know camp. Causes for optimisim about the consequences of leaving the EU escape me. It is not that I am not looking for them. They just are not there to see.

I understand the 'better the devil you know argument' but no one ever grew or developed by standing still and accepting the status quo. The EU is a sclerotic self protecting dinosaur who's share of world trade diminishes each year. When we leave it will only get worse by bringing in even more basket case countries who will need funding. I agree that huge amounts of time appear to have been wasted, but I will bet it won't have been. We will have our no deal scenario detailed and we have put forward a variety of proposals, but again this slow moving beast just cannot get its head around this new reality which will shortly be upon us. Part of our problem has been the remoaner rearguard action and head burying, instead of getting behind our country. Once the German elections are out of the way things will move forward, remember Germany has a massive trade surplus with the UK, the biggest in the world, and they are on the hook far more than we.

In terms of NI, I've said before, just leave the borders open, offer the EU free trade, if they then do not wish it and insist on borders then they will have to put the borders in place because we won't. In respect of Gibraltar, Spain regularly screws up the border and treats the 10,000 or so Spanish people who work in Gib as political pawns, with no help at all from the EU. Spain also interferes with flights again with no comeback from the EU. Gib will survive outside of the EU.......

 

[Ruairi77]

Does your open border mean free movement of goods and people between the UK and the EU?

 

[peteblue]

Does your open border mean free movement of goods and people between the UK and the EU?

For the people of Ireland, other EU nationals will 'book in' when they arrive on the mainland.....

 

[peteblue]

The issue of how to treat the Irish border should be a discussion between Ireland and the UK. Im not aware that the EU dictates how the Spanish operate their borders with Morocco.......

 

[peteblue]

Imagine if the roles were reversed. If the UK remained in the EU and Ireland left it. The UK would still allow free movement of goods and people between Ireland and the U.K. The difference being that the UK would tell the EU to butt out of our affairs.....and we would be fighting your corner.....

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

I think we should have a referendum to settle this debate once and for all, as the Lib Dems are proposing.

 

[peteblue]

I think we should have a referendum to settle this debate once and for all, as the Lib Dems are proposing.

Stirrer........

 

[Ruairi77]

For the people of Ireland, other EU nationals will 'book in' when they arrive on the mainland.....

How do you police that?

 

[davids]

But we will be out of the EU. Even if the absolute worst happens with the EU shooting itself in the foot, economies can be quickly rebuilt, and as you say it's our economy so don't let it bother you......

Are we talking Sim City or Lego

 

[hullefc]

How do you police that?

The UK government have put that one on the back burner. According to the 'position' paper, there will be free movement of all those residing on the island and EU citizens within the island of Ireland, something enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement. Irish and EU nationals will also be able to move to the rest of the UK, that is until 'a new immigration system and controls of EEA citizens' is brought in. When and what that is will be part of the 'negotiations' and part of the period after 2019.

Even after the UK leaves, those residing in the north of the island of Ireland will be protected by UK and EU laws and thereby the ECJ, it will still play a part in the life of UK citizens on the island of Ireland. As far as the island of Ireland goes it is looking more and more like special status and Brexit doesn't mean Brexit.

 

[davids]

The UK government have put that one on the back burner. According to the 'position' paper, there will be free movement of all those residing on the island and EU citizens within the island of Ireland, something enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement. Irish and EU nationals will also be able to move to the rest of the UK, that is until 'a new immigration system and controls of EEA citizens' is brought in. When and what that is will be part of the 'negotiations' and part of the period after 2019.

Even after the UK leaves, those residing in the north of the island of Ireland will be protected by UK and EU laws and thereby the ECJ, it will still play a part in the life of UK citizens on the island of Ireland. As far as the island of Ireland goes it is looking more and more like special status and Brexit doesn't mean Brexit.

That'll be welcome news for all the Brexit voters in the six counties.

 

[peteblue]

How do you police that?

The EU dictates that every EU national must 'check out' of the EU so the Republic (which is not in Schengen) would Police it for any other EU national leaving the Republic, and anyone flying from the Republic to U.K. would go through security as now except that Irish nationals would go through UK and Irish nationals. anyone coming by boat would be warned at both ends of the journey to pass through immigration if an EU national (exc Irish Nationals). Once in the UK mainland, EU nationals could visit or work, anyone from the EU (exc Irish nationals) who deliberately avoided immigration would be unable to work and would be deported. They could have done exactly the same by jumping on a small boat out of France and landing on one of our beaches, just as we could do from the UK to France or wherever. Our borders would be no more 'leaky' than they are now, the legal status of EU nationals remains the same however they arrive (foreign nationals) but Irish nationals get treated separately. I haven't seen any official proposal, but there are a myriad of ways to deliver something similar, with some thought and goodwill. It respect of 'goods' then a trusted 'country of origin' process would apply, with appropriate draconian legal recourse for anyone playing the system, but let's not forget that the UK wants to allow free movement of goods anyway.....

 

[hullefc]

That'll be welcome news for all the Brexit voters in the six counties.

There wont be a stink because the north of Ireland gets approximately £400 million every year directly from the EU, primarily for agriculture but also for other peace projects, through the PEACE funding. Which is part of the Good Friday Agreement. Those that want Brexit in the north of Ireland will not want to jeopardise that money. The UK government have asked for the EU to keep sending the money to Belfast even after the rest of the UK has formally left the EU. Brexit doesn't mean Brexit for the island of Ireland as the UK government's position makes clear.

The UK government's position about when and how EU nationals going to Ireland will be not allowed free movement into the rest of the UK after the UK formally leaves, has been put to one side for the time being. But they will have to spell out what they envisage before very long i.e some form of visa system.