Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
How can you possibly make the statement shown in bold above? Are you party to things other mere mortals are not cognisant about?
Or are you just making it up on the fly...?
Current Affairs EU In or Out
- Thread starter micknick
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How can you possibly make the statement shown in bold above? Are you party to things other mere mortals are not cognisant about?
Or are you just making it up on the fly...?
I know stuff.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
Give me the hard evidence to back up your contention...
Or admit you are making it up as you go...
I can't give up my negotiating position.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
Don't know what the hell that means in response to my point.
But anyway, always remember this: He who asserts must prove...
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
The Eu will not adjudicate anything. That's what the argument about the ECJ is about. The EU do not adjudicate with anything done with the USA or Russia or Canada or whoever. We will be a Sovereign country and not just a region of the EU........
Germany's big businesses' Brexit worries
Mark MardellPresenter, The World This Weekend
Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
It must be serious. They've deployed the Royals.
The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have been on tour in Germany with a very specific purpose: to reassure the country that Brexit doesn't mean the break-up of a beautiful relationship.
Prince William, after speaking a few words in German, told guests at a British embassy garden party: "This relationship between UK and Germany really matters, it will continue despite Britain's recent decision to leave the European Union. I am confident we will remain the firmest of friends."
But since the British election, German politicians are more troubled than ever about Brexit. The German council for foreign relation's director, Daniela Schwarzer, told me: "Policymakers in Berlin are surprised and worried at the degree of confusion in London, the lack of clarity as to the strategy the UK wants to follow.
"There is a lot surprise about how the negotiations are being handled and the somewhat incoherent messages which come out of London."
Of course, Germany is just one country in the European Union - but it is first among equals, its chancellor by far the most senior politician, with a new and determined ally in President Macron, who's refreshed the Franco-German alliance.
Even before Brexit became a reality, there's been an argument, almost an assumption, that German industry would put pressure on German politicians to argue for a good deal for the UK, access to the European market without having to abide by the rules.
Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionThe Duke and Duchess of Cambridge recently toured Germany
So far, Mrs Merkel has been adamant: no cherry picking. Will German industry push her to change her mind?
I visited the Trumpf company in Stuttgart, a concern with a turnover of 3bn euros (£2.7bn) a year that makes sheet metal, laser cutters and machine tools. It employs 4,000 people in Germany and another 8,000 globally: in the USA, China, Japan, South Korea - and Luton, Southampton and Rugby.
The company's Heidi Maier tells me orders from the UK are up, because people have got used to the idea of Brexit.
"Despite political insecurities and decisions we don't like and we don't back, our business is doing very well," she says.
We stand in front of the True Punch 5000. The machine is swift and certain, precise and elegant, all the qualities that make Germans so proud of their engineering prowess.
The exact opposite of these qualities - slowness and uncertainty - is what worries German industry about Brexit.
I ask Ms Maier what they want Mrs Merkel to push for. "What would help is decisions, and fast decisions," she says.
"As soon as we know the new rules, we can go ahead. We are actually preparing for tariffs, which is the implication [of what the British government is saying], which would worsen our business. The goods we produce in Great Britain would become more expensive due to the tariffs, and we don't know how our customers would react to that."
Most German businesses tend to lobby government through powerful trade associations. And one industry has more horsepower than any other.
Germany's glittering car industry is an industrial giant with immense political clout and a 400bn euro turnover, employing 800,000 people. And the relationship with the UK is very important. One in seven cars exported from Germany goes to the UK, its single biggest market.
Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionThe Trumpf machine is just one example of German high-tech engineering
Ever since Brexit was a speck on the horizon, enthusiasts for leaving have argued the mighty German auto industry wouldn't allow politicians to punish Britain, a point I put to Matthias Wissman, the president of the VDA, the German automotive industry association.
"What we want is to keep the European Union of the 27 together," he says. "That is the first priority. Second priority is to have a trade area with the UK with no tariff barriers, no non-tariff barriers. That is possible if the UK understands what the preconditions are.
"We want a good deal for Britain, but the best deal for Britain would be to stay in the customs union. Anything else would be worse for both sides, the best thing would be to stay in the internal market like Norway."
He accused pro-Brexiteers of making "totally unrealistic" promises. "I see a lot which is astonishing for a friend of Great Britain. I miss the traditional British pragmatism. We would like to have it in the future, but I see more and more ideological points of view which make pragmatism very difficult and unfortunately in both parties, Conservative and Labour."
Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionThe UK is the German auto industry's biggest export market
When I put to him Liam Fox's view that a trade deal with the EU could be "one of the easiest in human history", he laughs and says it would take years and years but "time is running out".
"You need a transition period. And if you want an easy solution, stay in the customs union and the internal market.
"A transition period would also be very pragmatic. We hope that on the British side that gets deeper and deeper into the intellectual capabilities of those who decide."
This is not just the view of one man, or one industry. There seems to be a consensus among the industrial powerbrokers.
Klaus Deutsch of the federation of Germany industry, the BDI, makes it clear they did not want Brexit in the first place and would like the UK to stay in the single market and observe all the rules. But that's not the government's intention, so what follows?
"We would favour a comprehensive agreement. But the most important thing is legal certainty in the period from A to B. If you don't have a transition period of many years, then there will be a huge disruption to all sorts of businesses.
"The concern of business is unless you get a clear cut and legally safe agreement, you can't sell pharmaceuticals, or cars or what have you, across the Channel, you have to stop business, divest, change business models."
Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionWill Germany prioritise EU unity over its economic relationship with the UK?
He makes it clear only the British government can decide what it wants, but what about the idea they'll push Mrs Merkel to soften her approach?
"That's completely unlikely," Mr Deutsch says. "The importance of the European Union for German corporates is even higher than the importance of a bilateral relationship with the United Kingdom. So, the priority of safeguarding… the unity of the European Union is much more important than one economic relationship. There are a lot of illusions, it won't happen."
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's The World This Weekend programme, Owen Paterson, the former cabinet minister, who recently visited Germany, told me he had felt a "sense of denial" in the country over Brexit.
"It is hugely in everyone's interest that we maintain reciprocal free trade and as we have absolute conformity of standards, everyone should get their head round that," he told me.
"Whereas [the Germans] are still thinking entirely in terms of remaining in the current institutions and that's clearly what we are not going to do.
"We're not going to stay in the single market. We are not going to stay in the customs union. We're certainly not going to stay under the remit of the European Court of Justice. I found that that was something they had not really got their heads round."
And my overriding impression of the view of the big beasts of Germany industry? Frustration that they don't know where the British government wants to head and a strong sense that any outcome will be worse than what exists.
But also a total rejection of the idea that the economic relationship with the UK outweighs the German interest in European unity".
If the Tories were banking on German industry then they may have to rethink their whole strategy. The Tories just need to shut up and pay what they owe - which will happen -so they can have as easy as possible access to EU trade. They are in the process of agreeing free movement until the election. Transition, transition and transition is the new game in town. It ponders the question why did they do all this in the first place without the semantics. That way they may have saved some of the City of London jobs going to Dublin and Frankfurt.
Mark MardellPresenter, The World This Weekend
- 24 July 2017
It must be serious. They've deployed the Royals.
The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have been on tour in Germany with a very specific purpose: to reassure the country that Brexit doesn't mean the break-up of a beautiful relationship.
Prince William, after speaking a few words in German, told guests at a British embassy garden party: "This relationship between UK and Germany really matters, it will continue despite Britain's recent decision to leave the European Union. I am confident we will remain the firmest of friends."
But since the British election, German politicians are more troubled than ever about Brexit. The German council for foreign relation's director, Daniela Schwarzer, told me: "Policymakers in Berlin are surprised and worried at the degree of confusion in London, the lack of clarity as to the strategy the UK wants to follow.
"There is a lot surprise about how the negotiations are being handled and the somewhat incoherent messages which come out of London."
Of course, Germany is just one country in the European Union - but it is first among equals, its chancellor by far the most senior politician, with a new and determined ally in President Macron, who's refreshed the Franco-German alliance.
Even before Brexit became a reality, there's been an argument, almost an assumption, that German industry would put pressure on German politicians to argue for a good deal for the UK, access to the European market without having to abide by the rules.
Image captionThe Duke and Duchess of Cambridge recently toured Germany
So far, Mrs Merkel has been adamant: no cherry picking. Will German industry push her to change her mind?
I visited the Trumpf company in Stuttgart, a concern with a turnover of 3bn euros (£2.7bn) a year that makes sheet metal, laser cutters and machine tools. It employs 4,000 people in Germany and another 8,000 globally: in the USA, China, Japan, South Korea - and Luton, Southampton and Rugby.
The company's Heidi Maier tells me orders from the UK are up, because people have got used to the idea of Brexit.
"Despite political insecurities and decisions we don't like and we don't back, our business is doing very well," she says.
We stand in front of the True Punch 5000. The machine is swift and certain, precise and elegant, all the qualities that make Germans so proud of their engineering prowess.
The exact opposite of these qualities - slowness and uncertainty - is what worries German industry about Brexit.
I ask Ms Maier what they want Mrs Merkel to push for. "What would help is decisions, and fast decisions," she says.
"As soon as we know the new rules, we can go ahead. We are actually preparing for tariffs, which is the implication [of what the British government is saying], which would worsen our business. The goods we produce in Great Britain would become more expensive due to the tariffs, and we don't know how our customers would react to that."
Most German businesses tend to lobby government through powerful trade associations. And one industry has more horsepower than any other.
Germany's glittering car industry is an industrial giant with immense political clout and a 400bn euro turnover, employing 800,000 people. And the relationship with the UK is very important. One in seven cars exported from Germany goes to the UK, its single biggest market.
Image captionThe Trumpf machine is just one example of German high-tech engineering
Ever since Brexit was a speck on the horizon, enthusiasts for leaving have argued the mighty German auto industry wouldn't allow politicians to punish Britain, a point I put to Matthias Wissman, the president of the VDA, the German automotive industry association.
"What we want is to keep the European Union of the 27 together," he says. "That is the first priority. Second priority is to have a trade area with the UK with no tariff barriers, no non-tariff barriers. That is possible if the UK understands what the preconditions are.
"We want a good deal for Britain, but the best deal for Britain would be to stay in the customs union. Anything else would be worse for both sides, the best thing would be to stay in the internal market like Norway."
He accused pro-Brexiteers of making "totally unrealistic" promises. "I see a lot which is astonishing for a friend of Great Britain. I miss the traditional British pragmatism. We would like to have it in the future, but I see more and more ideological points of view which make pragmatism very difficult and unfortunately in both parties, Conservative and Labour."
Image captionThe UK is the German auto industry's biggest export market
When I put to him Liam Fox's view that a trade deal with the EU could be "one of the easiest in human history", he laughs and says it would take years and years but "time is running out".
"You need a transition period. And if you want an easy solution, stay in the customs union and the internal market.
"A transition period would also be very pragmatic. We hope that on the British side that gets deeper and deeper into the intellectual capabilities of those who decide."
This is not just the view of one man, or one industry. There seems to be a consensus among the industrial powerbrokers.
Klaus Deutsch of the federation of Germany industry, the BDI, makes it clear they did not want Brexit in the first place and would like the UK to stay in the single market and observe all the rules. But that's not the government's intention, so what follows?
"We would favour a comprehensive agreement. But the most important thing is legal certainty in the period from A to B. If you don't have a transition period of many years, then there will be a huge disruption to all sorts of businesses.
"The concern of business is unless you get a clear cut and legally safe agreement, you can't sell pharmaceuticals, or cars or what have you, across the Channel, you have to stop business, divest, change business models."
Image captionWill Germany prioritise EU unity over its economic relationship with the UK?
He makes it clear only the British government can decide what it wants, but what about the idea they'll push Mrs Merkel to soften her approach?
"That's completely unlikely," Mr Deutsch says. "The importance of the European Union for German corporates is even higher than the importance of a bilateral relationship with the United Kingdom. So, the priority of safeguarding… the unity of the European Union is much more important than one economic relationship. There are a lot of illusions, it won't happen."
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's The World This Weekend programme, Owen Paterson, the former cabinet minister, who recently visited Germany, told me he had felt a "sense of denial" in the country over Brexit.
"It is hugely in everyone's interest that we maintain reciprocal free trade and as we have absolute conformity of standards, everyone should get their head round that," he told me.
"Whereas [the Germans] are still thinking entirely in terms of remaining in the current institutions and that's clearly what we are not going to do.
"We're not going to stay in the single market. We are not going to stay in the customs union. We're certainly not going to stay under the remit of the European Court of Justice. I found that that was something they had not really got their heads round."
And my overriding impression of the view of the big beasts of Germany industry? Frustration that they don't know where the British government wants to head and a strong sense that any outcome will be worse than what exists.
But also a total rejection of the idea that the economic relationship with the UK outweighs the German interest in European unity".
If the Tories were banking on German industry then they may have to rethink their whole strategy. The Tories just need to shut up and pay what they owe - which will happen -so they can have as easy as possible access to EU trade. They are in the process of agreeing free movement until the election. Transition, transition and transition is the new game in town. It ponders the question why did they do all this in the first place without the semantics. That way they may have saved some of the City of London jobs going to Dublin and Frankfurt.
DownOnTheUpside
Player Valuation: £30m
honestly with the migrant situation exacerbating east-west EU relations and the spectre of Russia; I think it's time to play the NATO card - if the EU is determined to punish us economically, it may no longer be feasible for us to contribute to NATO
let the eastern countries see that the west cares more about punishing Britain than their security whilst undermining the 'safeguarding EU unity' approach of france, Germany etc
keep ratchetting up the pressure and making them fight on more and more fronts until they realise there's an easy way and a hard way to do this
let the eastern countries see that the west cares more about punishing Britain than their security whilst undermining the 'safeguarding EU unity' approach of france, Germany etc
keep ratchetting up the pressure and making them fight on more and more fronts until they realise there's an easy way and a hard way to do this
It's not determined to punish us. We were members of an entity for which there are certain rules, and whilst members we abided by those rules. Firstly, if we've committed to spending £xx, then we are obliged to honour those commitments imo. Secondly, if we're no longer part of that entity, how can we expect to enjoy the benefits of it?
I don't understand why people are accusing the EU of punishing us for us no longer having access to the single market. The only people, probably in the whole of Europe, who thought that would ever happen was Farage, Johnson and their gang of cronies. They've hoodwinked people, and they're the ones you should be annoyed with, not the EU.
DownOnTheUpside
Player Valuation: £30m
the single market does not require the European union, the European union has grown up around the benefits of free trade and now insists on EU membership for access because the EU cannot sell itself on it's own merits
AndyC
Player Valuation: £70m
Spot on !!!
The EU grew up around the Treaty of Rome or Treaty establishing the European Economic Community.
"The TEEC proposed the progressive reduction of customs duties and the establishment of a customs union. It proposed to create a single market for goods, labour, services, and capital across the EEC's member states. It also proposed the creation of a Common Agriculture Policy, a Common Transport Policy and a European Social Fund, and established the European Commission". That is a single market trading block.
Closer integration was always on the cards and the introduction of a single currency was the product of that closer union. The Euro was designed to stop currency fluctuations - which were sometimes used by countries, particularly France, to lower their currency to make their goods cheaper against others in the EU- and therefore lower costs for industry.
Expanding Eastwards would suggest that the EU is 'selling itself on it's own merits' otherwise they wouldn't want to join. And likewise, if the EU didn't feel it was beneficial for those countries to join they wouldn't allow them. The EU has developed into a massive trading block that is involved in protecting their trade against other countries e.g Japan, the US etc.. The UK doesn't have much choice but to gain as frictionless access to the single market as possible, and to do that they will have to pay for that. UK industry is putting increasing pressure on the Tories to get a deal done quickly so they can plan one way or the other. For the City of London the horse has already bolted and it is just a question of how many jobs will be lost.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
I don't want access to the single market, you need to be an EU member for that. I want a free trade deal, just like Canada has done with the EU......
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Telegraph.....
"Britain’s car making industry has received a major vote of confidence after BMW announced it will build an all-electric version of the Mini in the UK.
The German car giant said the full-electric Mini E will roll off the production lines at its Oxford plant - which is the historic home of the iconic car - from 2019.
There had been speculation that the work could go to BMW’s factory in the Netherlands which currently produces a smaller amount of the fleet or even an entirely new plant in Germany.
However the news guarantees the future of the 4,500 staff at plant, who currently build the bulk of the 360,000 Minis built each year."
"Britain’s car making industry has received a major vote of confidence after BMW announced it will build an all-electric version of the Mini in the UK.
The German car giant said the full-electric Mini E will roll off the production lines at its Oxford plant - which is the historic home of the iconic car - from 2019.
There had been speculation that the work could go to BMW’s factory in the Netherlands which currently produces a smaller amount of the fleet or even an entirely new plant in Germany.
However the news guarantees the future of the 4,500 staff at plant, who currently build the bulk of the 360,000 Minis built each year."
Gouldy
Player Valuation: £1m
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